Skadden (NY) v. Clifford Chance (NY) for exit to UK Forum

[Anonymous User]

Maybe this is a dumb question, but which firm would more easily allow me to lateral/exit/work in the UK? I know CC is magic circle, but I've heard it isn't easy to transfer to a different office from within a firm. If that is the case, then would it make more sense to start at Skadden given its better reputation within the US? CC would also allow me to spend part of my summer in the UK, which could be useful to create contacts there. Not sure which would result in a higher probability of getting where I want to be.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden NY --> secondment to Skadden London office for at least 2 years --> exit to Magic Circle firm.

Has been done, know people who have done it, have a nice day.

[Anonymous User]

Skadden NY --> secondment to Skadden London office for at least 2 years --> exit to Magic Circle firm.

Has been done, know people who have done it, have a nice day.

Skadden NY --> secondment to Skadden London office for at least 2 years --> exit to Magic Circle firm.

Has been done, know people who have done it, have a nice day.

I would actually say the opposite; doing a secondment with CC in London could either lead to a job in London with CC or with an American firm. Skadden obviously is not even comparable in London to Clifford Chance, so where do you think other Magic Circle firms in London and American firms are going to hire from? Look at bios from London lawyers at firms like Skadden, Davis Polk, Kirkland, etc., and you'll see that a lot of them started at Freshfields, CC, and other MC firms.

[Anonymous User]

I'm just a 2L so take this with a grain of salt but I think id take cc for what you want. They seem to be more of an international powerhouse

[Old Gregg]

Why on earth would you want to do biglaw in london. it's more expensive to live there than nyc, the weather is worse, and they work harder than NYC lawyers. never understood the attraction (unless it's your home).

[Anonymous User]

Skadden, hands down. The mentality I was always told during interviews was if you're going to be a us capital markets lawyer (which if you want to work in London I assume you will be), go to the best us capital markets firm (with a London office) you can. I even had a partner tell me even if you don't come to my firm, don't go to a mc firm - they will always get the best uk deals but for us law the big deals go to the us firms.

[Anonymous User]

I was the first anon responder. I'm staying anon, but whoever said no to me is wrong. How do I know this? Because of the following:

1) Yes there is a lot of movement between the MC for ENGLISH-trained lawyers, but Clifford Chance in the UK as an American lawyer (JD) means you are doing capital markets ONLY in a very small American practice group. Your lateral options between CC offices is limited to ONLY capital markets work. So if you start in CC NYC, you will be doing capital markets work, and even that work might be different than the London office of CC's projects, because gasp! capital markets work differs across offices.

2) If you start in Skadden NYC, yes your M&A work might be different than in the UK (public versus private), but you can easily EASILY do a secondment to London and get concrete experience in M&A, capital markets/securities, and project finance in the London office before staying there (either at S or switching over to a smaller American team at an MC firm). Skadden is respected in London, and remember you are a JD (!!!!), so in case that MC offer doesn't come through, you can always go BACK stateside and go to another firm with Skadden on your resume.

Why would you NOT do this? Seriously. I don't mean to be snarky, but anyone telling you otherwise earns a facepalm.

[Morgan12Oak]

Why on earth would you want to do biglaw in london. it's more expensive to live there than nyc, the weather is worse, and they work harder than NYC lawyers. never understood the attraction (unless it's your home).

It's more expensive, but you get paid wayyyyyyyyyyy more. No way London is more than 1.5x as expensive as NYC. Rent in London is a bit cheaper, but everything else is more expensive.

[Anonymous User]

Why on earth would you want to do biglaw in london. it's more expensive to live there than nyc, the weather is worse, and they work harder than NYC lawyers. never understood the attraction (unless it's your home).

It's more expensive, but you get paid wayyyyyyyyyyy more. No way London is more than 1.5x as expensive as NYC. Rent in London is a bit cheaper, but everything else is more expensive.

You get paid a COLA to work in London as a JD, that covers the cost difference and typically comes out (after taxes) to about $1k more per month than NYC biglaw (assuming you live in Manhattan). Sure you if you want to live in non-NYC or Jersey, then yea NYC/U.S. biglaw may be better. But actually the housing stock is cheaper in London for the quality/availability than Manhattan and with a COLA, you should come out slightly better.

[Anonymous User]

I have friends who have split between Skadden U.S. and Skadden London in the summer. Are they not letting you do that this year?

[Morgan12Oak]

Why on earth would you want to do biglaw in london. it's more expensive to live there than nyc, the weather is worse, and they work harder than NYC lawyers. never understood the attraction (unless it's your home).

It's more expensive, but you get paid wayyyyyyyyyyy more. No way London is more than 1.5x as expensive as NYC. Rent in London is a bit cheaper, but everything else is more expensive.

You get paid a COLA to work in London as a JD, that covers the cost difference and typically comes out (after taxes) to about $1k more per month than NYC biglaw (assuming you live in Manhattan). Sure you if you want to live in non-NYC or Jersey, then yea NYC/U.S. biglaw may be better. But actually the housing stock is cheaper in London for the quality/availability than Manhattan and with a COLA, you should come out slightly better.

COLA is more than that (heard as low as 60k, as high as 90k) for first years at least (ends up being significantly more than 1k/month)

[Anonymous User]

Why on earth would you want to do biglaw in london. it's more expensive to live there than nyc, the weather is worse, and they work harder than NYC lawyers. never understood the attraction (unless it's your home).

LOL at lawyers in London working harder than NYC lawyers. I have worked across from several London firms (and London offices of US firms) and it can be near impossible to get anything from them during their evenings, weekends and holidays (whereas in NY it can be possible to get away for any of the three). From what I have heard London firm's billable requirements/actual expectations fall far short of US firms. Not saying there aren't a good number of hard workers, but to say that lawyers work harder their in general is laughable.

[Morgan12Oak]

Why on earth would you want to do biglaw in london. it's more expensive to live there than nyc, the weather is worse, and they work harder than NYC lawyers. never understood the attraction (unless it's your home).

LOL at lawyers in London working harder than NYC lawyers. I have worked across from several London firms (and London offices of US firms) and it can be near impossible to get anything from them during their evenings, weekends and holidays (whereas in NY it can be possible to get away for any of the three). From what I have heard London firm's billable requirements/actual expectations fall far short of US firms. Not saying there aren't a good number of hard workers, but to say that lawyers work harder their in general is laughable.

Agreed. They typically bill far less and are out by 7/7:30.

[Morgan12Oak]

Biglaw in London with COLA is the way to go if you can stand living in London.

[Anonymous User]

Comes out to 1k after UK taxes assuming min COLA of $60k. Don't forget those taxes, yo.

UK tax at say, $220k minimum salary is higher than the U.S. Plus few/no deductions. That's why you get the COLA.

NYC taxes = Fed, NY state, NYC city, plus SS/Medicare. NYC Biglaw take-home can vary anywhere from 7500-9000.

[Old Gregg]

Comes out to 1k after UK taxes assuming min COLA of $60k. Don't forget those taxes, yo.

UK tax at say, $220k minimum salary is higher than the U.S. Plus few/no deductions. That's why you get the COLA.

NYC taxes = Fed, NY state, NYC city, plus SS/Medicare. NYC Biglaw take-home can vary anywhere from 7500-9000.

dont forget that you also get taxed by the US for every dollar made abroad above $97k (assuming the first $97k was taxed by the UK). double tax yo

[Morgan12Oak]

Comes out to 1k after UK taxes assuming min COLA of $60k. Don't forget those taxes, yo.

UK tax at say, $220k minimum salary is higher than the U.S. Plus few/no deductions. That's why you get the COLA.

NYC taxes = Fed, NY state, NYC city, plus SS/Medicare. NYC Biglaw take-home can vary anywhere from 7500-9000.

Not sure how you're arriving at this. Assume 220k (so the min/low side of COLA) so 133k pounds. Assuming NO deductions at ALL (which is wrong since you're allowed some foreign housing deductions), your monthly would be 6700 pounds ~11k which is more than 1K above 160k takehome which is about 8k.

And you don't get double taxed on amounts over 97k, you use the foreign tax credit to offset taxes due the IRS using the tax you pay the UK government....

[Morgan12Oak]

Comes out to 1k after UK taxes assuming min COLA of $60k. Don't forget those taxes, yo.

UK tax at say, $220k minimum salary is higher than the U.S. Plus few/no deductions. That's why you get the COLA.

NYC taxes = Fed, NY state, NYC city, plus SS/Medicare. NYC Biglaw take-home can vary anywhere from 7500-9000.

dont forget that you also get taxed by the US for every dollar made abroad above $97k (assuming the first $97k was taxed by the UK). double tax yo

Wrong, the only way you would owe the US taxes is if you're working in a jurisidiction that taxes less than the US, i.e. like Hong Kong, then the taxes you paid HK wouldn't offset the taxes you owe the IRS with foreign tax credits.....

[Old Gregg]

morgan, you're a fucking psycho. thats just blatantly wrong.

[Morgan12Oak]

morgan, you're a fucking psycho.

http://www.onebigyodel.com/2014/03/taxe ... xpats.html

http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxat ... d-dummies/

[Morgan12Oak]

morgan, you're a fucking psycho. thats just blatantly wrong.

You literally think every dollar you make above 97k is taxed by both the US and the UK? That'd mean your millionth dollar would be taxed at like 45% in the UK and like 39.6% in the US and you'd get 15%?

you're fucking dumb

edit: add lmao

[Old Gregg]

From your own link:

How does living abroad mitigate my US tax?

There are basically two methods by which you can reduce your US tax by a substantial amount. These are the "Foreign Earned Income Exclusion"and the "Foreign Tax Credit." However, neither of these methods excuses you from filing if your income was above the filing threshold.

The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE, using IRS Form 2555) allows you to exclude a certain amount of your EARNED income from US tax. For tax year 2013 this exclusion was $97,600. What this means is that if, for example, you earned $150,000 in 2013, you can subtract $97,600 from that leaving $52,400 as taxable by the US. But beware that this $52,400 is taxable at tax rates applying to $150,000 (the so-called "stacking rule"). The exclusion only applies to earned income. Other income, such as pensions, interest, dividends, capital gains, etc., cannot be excluded with the FEIE.

Here's a simple example. Suppose you live in France and you and your spouse together earned the equivalent of $150,000 (about EURO 110,000) from your French employer(s). You are married filing jointly, have two children and you take the standard deduction.

The US tax on this income is calculated as follows:

US tax on $150,000 : $22,408

Subtract US tax on $97,600 (the exclusion): $ 9,578

Net US tax payable: $12,830

While this is only an approximate calculation, it gives you an idea of how the system works.

Didn't know about the credit, though. Have to check the math on that.

[Morgan12Oak]

From your own link:

How does living abroad mitigate my US tax?

There are basically two methods by which you can reduce your US tax by a substantial amount. These are the "Foreign Earned Income Exclusion"and the "Foreign Tax Credit." However, neither of these methods excuses you from filing if your income was above the filing threshold.

The Foreign Earned Income Exclusion (FEIE, using IRS Form 2555) allows you to exclude a certain amount of your EARNED income from US tax. For tax year 2013 this exclusion was $97,600. What this means is that if, for example, you earned $150,000 in 2013, you can subtract $97,600 from that leaving $52,400 as taxable by the US. But beware that this $52,400 is taxable at tax rates applying to $150,000 (the so-called "stacking rule"). The exclusion only applies to earned income. Other income, such as pensions, interest, dividends, capital gains, etc., cannot be excluded with the FEIE.

Here's a simple example. Suppose you live in France and you and your spouse together earned the equivalent of $150,000 (about EURO 110,000) from your French employer(s). You are married filing jointly, have two children and you take the standard deduction.

The US tax on this income is calculated as follows:

US tax on $150,000 : $22,408

Subtract US tax on $97,600 (the exclusion): $ 9,578

Net US tax payable: $12,830

While this is only an approximate calculation, it gives you an idea of how the system works.

Didn't know about the credit, though. Have to check the math on that.

Right, that example shows $12,830 US payable tax, but the example says nothing about taxes to the foreign entity. In this example, presumably, you would have paid more than $12,830 to the foreign government, meaning your tax liability to the US would be zero.

If your taxes in a foreign entity are higher than US, you pay the taxes in the foreign entity.

If your taxes in a foreign entity, the US basically fucks you and makes you pay taxes at the US rate.

[Morgan12Oak]

To reply to OP: do CC, best chance to get to London I think and you want to get there. 11K vs 7.5K is a big deal in pay. London's more expensive but you'll come out ahead.

[Anonymous User]

I was the first anon responder. I'm staying anon, but whoever said no to me is wrong. How do I know this? Because of the following:

1) Yes there is a lot of movement between the MC for ENGLISH-trained lawyers, but Clifford Chance in the UK as an American lawyer (JD) means you are doing capital markets ONLY in a very small American practice group. Your lateral options between CC offices is limited to ONLY capital markets work. So if you start in CC NYC, you will be doing capital markets work, and even that work might be different than the London office of CC's projects, because gasp! capital markets work differs across offices.

2) If you start in Skadden NYC, yes your M&A work might be different than in the UK (public versus private), but you can easily EASILY do a secondment to London and get concrete experience in M&A, capital markets/securities, and project finance in the London office before staying there (either at S or switching over to a smaller American team at an MC firm). Skadden is respected in London, and remember you are a JD (!!!!), so in case that MC offer doesn't come through, you can always go BACK stateside and go to another firm with Skadden on your resume.

Why would you NOT do this? Seriously. I don't mean to be snarky, but anyone telling you otherwise earns a facepalm.

Just flat wrong. The capital markets work does not differ across offices for Magic Circle firms. You're doing Reg S/144A stuff exclusively. Also lol at doing M&A and even bigger LOL at project finance in London. Skadden is not very well respected in London (in fact, many American firms that are less respected stateside are more respected in London -- Latham being a perfect example), whereas clifford chance is extremely well respected in London.

How do I know this? I had 2 offers in London, have talked to partners from both American and Magic Circle firms, and know over a dozen attorneys working in London who I've talked to extensively.

Now, sure, if you want to come back to the US it will be better to have worked at Skadden. But that wasn't really the point of this thread, now was it?