Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This Forum

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Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:01 pm

I just received the resume for someone I will be interviewing at her callback next week. In her "Language Skills" section she wrote something along the lines of "Fluent in Language 1, Studied Language 2 for x years" and I absolutely cringed. There have been threads dedicated to similar topics, but the bottom line is if you are not able to state with confidence your level of proficiency in a particular language, it shouldn't go on your resume. The fact that you have studied a language for any length of time is irrelevant. I happen to be one hundred percent fluent in Language 2 and I am absolutely going to make this candidate speak it with me. My reaction is either going to be "why didn't she say she was conversational" or "how did she learn nothing in x years of study?" Bottom line, she loses either way. This may sound harsh, but I have little time to consider her candidacy, so she is going to be facing a tremendous uphill battle to get a good evaluation from me. I value honesty and integrity above most other traits and have little patience with candidates trying to fluff up their resumes.

Something that candidates may not realize is that law firm recruiting departments actually try really hard to match candidates up with associates/partners with similar interests and experiences for interviews. Language skills is probably one of the easiest areas to do this with, so you need to honestly ask yourself if you can stand behind what you have written on your resume. (Or, in the case of my interviewee, ask yourself if what you have written means anything at all.)

Also, be aware that there are very few (if any) languages that law firms aren't able to find native/fluent speakers for. Don't think that you are special because you happened to study a language that you think is hard. Firms looking for foreign language speakers these days are looking for (and readily find) candidates with either native level or full business proficiency. Being able to muddle through a conversation at a two-year old level does not add value.

With the above in mind, if you do feel the urge to mention that you have studied a language but are not comfortable claiming a level of proficiency, consider including that in your "Interests" section. That way you can have a safe and honest conversation about it without being called out for claiming skills that you don't have.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:07 pm

Also learned from a recruiter that unless you're business proficient or native your language skills are irrelevant.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:41 pm

To go along with the last point OP made, I put "basic knowledge of X language" in the Interests section of my resume, along with some countries I'd traveled to. It generated a lot of conversation at screeners that led to callback, some of which was about how I had gotten a basic knowledge. Granted for me it was that it was a language I grew up speaking but stopped in grade school, losing proficiency, so maybe that was a bit more interesting that "Oh, I Rosetta stone'd it for a bit."

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:17 pm

what about putting proficient for "ability to read and write fluently, but can't speak due to atrocious accent?"

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:51 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I just received the resume for someone I will be interviewing at her callback next week. In her "Language Skills" section she wrote something along the lines of "Fluent in Language 1, Studied Language 2 for x years" and I absolutely cringed. There have been threads dedicated to similar topics, but the bottom line is if you are not able to state with confidence your level of proficiency in a particular language, it shouldn't go on your resume. The fact that you have studied a language for any length of time is irrelevant. I happen to be one hundred percent fluent in Language 2 and I am absolutely going to make this candidate speak it with me. My reaction is either going to be "why didn't she say she was conversational" or "how did she learn nothing in x years of study?" Bottom line, she loses either way. This may sound harsh, but I have little time to consider her candidacy, so she is going to be facing a tremendous uphill battle to get a good evaluation from me. I value honesty and integrity above most other traits and have little patience with candidates trying to fluff up their resumes.

Something that candidates may not realize is that law firm recruiting departments actually try really hard to match candidates up with associates/partners with similar interests and experiences for interviews. Language skills is probably one of the easiest areas to do this with, so you need to honestly ask yourself if you can stand behind what you have written on your resume. (Or, in the case of my interviewee, ask yourself if what you have written means anything at all.)

Also, be aware that there are very few (if any) languages that law firms aren't able to find native/fluent speakers for. Don't think that you are special because you happened to study a language that you think is hard. Firms looking for foreign language speakers these days are looking for (and readily find) candidates with either native level or full business proficiency. Being able to muddle through a conversation at a two-year old level does not add value.

With the above in mind, if you do feel the urge to mention that you have studied a language but are not comfortable claiming a level of proficiency, consider including that in your "Interests" section. That way you can have a safe and honest conversation about it without being called out for claiming skills that you don't have.
Make her speak it with you? That seems unnecessary. Unless the interview is for a foreign office where the language skill is required, her language section is probably resume filler. It sounds like a simple resume faux pas. For all you know her school's CSO told her that was the proper way to add it. Instead of putting her on blast during the interview and potentially throwing her off for the rest of the CB, just broach the subject tactfully.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:34 pm

Anonymous User wrote: Make her speak it with you? That seems unnecessary. Unless the interview is for a foreign office where the language skill is required, her language section is probably resume filler. It sounds like a simple resume faux pas. For all you know her school's CSO told her that was the proper way to add it. Instead of putting her on blast during the interview and potentially throwing her off for the rest of the CB, just broach the subject tactfully.
OP here. The beautiful thing about sitting on the other side of the chair is that, within reason, I can ask whatever I want as long I don't violate any anti-discrimination laws. While nothing is "necessary" during an interview, testing a candidate's purported language skills is definitely within the realm of reasonable. I have no interest in "throwing somebody off for the rest of the CB," but I have every right to transition into a dialogue in this particular language to see if she actually has a language skill.

My response to this resume demonstrates why candidates have to be really careful in choosing what to include in their resumes. Interviewers are all sensitive to different issues. While other interviewers may not care at all, I have little patience for "resume filler" that candidates aren't willing/able to back up, especially with regards to language skills.

Finally, I could care less what the candidate's CSO told her. It isn't my problem that she received bad advice, and it doesn't take too much common sense to distinguish a language skill from the lack thereof.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:37 pm

I mean, if you put a language on your resume, you should be prepared to show your facility in it. Calling it resume "filler" seems kind of disingenuous, and there isn't really such a thing as "resume faux pas" that's not going to screw you over.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:19 pm

Anonymous User wrote:
Anonymous User wrote: Make her speak it with you? That seems unnecessary. Unless the interview is for a foreign office where the language skill is required, her language section is probably resume filler. It sounds like a simple resume faux pas. For all you know her school's CSO told her that was the proper way to add it. Instead of putting her on blast during the interview and potentially throwing her off for the rest of the CB, just broach the subject tactfully.
This.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:25 pm

To tag on this and generalize it, what op says is true - career services will try to match you with associates with the same interest as what you've put on your resume. This is both blessing and curse. I'm world class in an area of interest that a ton of people put on their resume - got my PhD in it before becoming a lawyer - and career services funnels everyone who puts it on their resume to me. I can instantly tell if its bullshit, and if its bullshit, you're in deep trouble. On the other hand, for the folks who are legitimate, it makes for a great and easy interview.

DO NOT bullshit your "interests".

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by lonerider » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:39 pm

Candidate wrote "studied language X for # years". You happen to speak language X. If candidate wrote "fluent" or "conversational" or "advanced", yeah I get your point. But they just wrote the # of years they studied. It's a weak line on a resume, on that you win. But it's 100% factual. Talking to them in the language will neither prove/disprove the resume point. Candidate is not exaggerating or puffing up their resume with this line. Your quibble, which you admitted already, is that the point is listed under "language skills" and not "interests." That seems pretty minor to me and is really subjective.

Edit: I just want to add that I think it's such a subjective point that, if I were you, I'd ask someone else in your office who speaks a 2nd language what their take is before you grill this applicant. I get it that in resume season you see a lot of puffery by kids who haven't held a job longer than 9 months, which gets annoying to deal with. But I don't think that's the case here.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Old Gregg » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:44 pm

hurray for self-important interviewers. you make the legal profession just that much more enjoyable.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:53 pm

lonerider wrote:Candidate wrote "studied language X for # years". You happen to speak language X. If candidate wrote "fluent" or "conversational" or "advanced", yeah I get your point. But they just wrote the # of years they studied. It's a weak line on a resume, on that you win. But it's 100% factual. Talking to them in the language will neither prove/disprove the resume point. Candidate is not exaggerating or puffing up their resume with this line. Your quibble, which you admitted already, is that the point is listed under "language skills" and not "interests." That seems pretty minor to me and is really subjective.

Edit: I just want to add that I think it's such a subjective point that, if I were you, I'd ask someone else in your office who speaks a 2nd language what their take is before you grill this applicant. I get it that in resume season you see a lot of puffery by kids who haven't held a job longer than 9 months, which gets annoying to deal with. But I don't think that's the case here.
I agree with this. I'm a native speaker of a very rare foreign language. If I interviewed a candidate who put "conversational in [very rare language]" on his/her resume, I'd hold it against that person for not being able to speak it. If the candidate put "minored in [very rare language]" or "studied [very rare language] for X years" I agree that it's an odd resume line, and I'd probably ask about it, and if the person could not speak my language I'd only conclude that learning rare foreign languages wasn't his/her thing or perhaps the person didn't get a chance to actually visit the country (perhaps because the person is not from a privileged background). I would not, however, conclude anything about whether that person had potential to be an effective associate at my firm.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:00 pm

To all people: I would recommend leaving languages off of your resume entirely unless you are fluent or close to fluent. I accurately stated my level of proficiency in a language on my resume, and after I spoke haltingly in the language with an interviewer, the dude became visibly pissed with me for not speaking as well as him. Tools like OP look for any reason to get mad about stated language ability, and you will run into at least one self-conscious asshole for every person who is impressed with you for gaining a solid but imperfect grasp of a language.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Anonymous User » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I mean, if you put a language on your resume, you should be prepared to show your facility in it. Calling it resume "filler" seems kind of disingenuous, and there isn't really such a thing as "resume faux pas" that's not going to screw you over.
What's with the passive aggressive air quotes? She said she studied it for X years. Not that she was an expert. If I had put I studied the violin for X years and you were a expert, what type of facility would you expect me to demonstrate?

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Georgia Avenue » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:45 pm

yeah i vote for OP's a dick

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by First Offense » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:54 pm

I love the people going anon to criticize OP.

I'm with him 100%. If what you put on the resume doesn't add anything of value, don't add it. You should know, if you put languages on your resume, you're running the risk of getting grilled on it. I studied Italian for years, and can speak it fairly well, but realized I didn't want it tested during an interview, so I left it off. That's common sense. Now if the interviewee shows competence with the language during the interview, I wouldn't hold it against him/her and may even count it as a point in their favor, but if not... well shit, that's the game. There are a lot more students applying for jobs than there are jobs - give it to someone that knows what to put on their resume/exhibits basic common sense.

ymmv

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by ymmv » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Georgia Avenue wrote:yeah i vote for OP's a dick
Agreed. That said I would not a put a language proficiency on a resume that I could not demonstrate in an interview if asked.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by ClerkAdvisor » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:59 pm

This is the problem with TLS these days: OP, an interviewer, discloses a resume pet peeve for the benefit of everyone here. Instead of taking OP's advice, people attack OP. Guess what 1L/2L's, I guarantee you that if OP has this pet peeve, other interviewers will also have this pet peeve. And I also guarantee you that every single one of you will have their own pet peeves when you're in OP's shoes.

ymmv

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by ymmv » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:03 am

ClerkAdvisor wrote:This is the problem with TLS these days: OP, an interviewer, discloses a resume pet peeve for the benefit of everyone here. Instead of taking OP's advice, people attack OP. Guess what 1L/2L's, I guarantee you that if OP has this pet peeve, other interviewers will also have this pet peeve. And I also guarantee you that every single one of you will have their own pet peeves when you're in OP's shoes.
OP demonstrating his assholery in the context of sharing advice does not make OP less of an asshole. But yes, it's good for TLSers to know.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by kalvano » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:09 am

Anonymous User wrote:
OP here. The beautiful thing about sitting on the other side of the chair is that, within reason, I can ask whatever I want as long I don't violate any anti-discrimination laws. While nothing is "necessary" during an interview, testing a candidate's purported language skills is definitely within the realm of reasonable. I have no interest in "throwing somebody off for the rest of the CB," but I have every right to transition into a dialogue in this particular language to see if she actually has a language skill.

My response to this resume demonstrates why candidates have to be really careful in choosing what to include in their resumes. Interviewers are all sensitive to different issues. While other interviewers may not care at all, I have little patience for "resume filler" that candidates aren't willing/able to back up, especially with regards to language skills.

Finally, I could care lesswhat the candidate's CSO told her. It isn't my problem that she received bad advice, and it doesn't take too much common sense to distinguish a language skill from the lack thereof.

As long as we are being nitpicky dicks about things that don't really matter...

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by lonerider » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:09 am

First Offense wrote:I love the people going anon to criticize OP.

I'm with him 100%. If what you put on the resume doesn't add anything of value, don't add it. You should know, if you put languages on your resume, you're running the risk of getting grilled on it. I studied Italian for years, and can speak it fairly well, but realized I didn't want it tested during an interview, so I left it off. That's common sense. Now if the interviewee shows competence with the language during the interview, I wouldn't hold it against him/her and may even count it as a point in their favor, but if not... well shit, that's the game. There are a lot more students applying for jobs than there are jobs - give it to someone that knows what to put on their resume/exhibits basic common sense.
I do get the feeling that there are some K-JDs in this thread who think exaggerating stuff on your resume is OK and should get a pass. That is obviously stupid. But I think most people posting in here lost sight of the fact that the applicant in question has not exaggerated anything in her resume. "# of years studying language X" is in all likelihood not an exaggeration.

Where I part ways with OP is where OP wants to ding the applicant if they can't reasonably converse in the language because the "# of years studying language X" is written under the "Languages" section of the resume, and not the "Interests."

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by dixiecupdrinking » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:10 am

This is bullshit.

(I mean, don't claim skills you don't have; but that is not what happened here.)

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by First Offense » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:20 am

Okay - how many people does the average interviewer interview a day? How many positions are available versus number of people interviewed? You're going to get dinged for a lot of "crappy" reasons. That's what happens when one side of the table has all the bargaining power.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by Old Gregg » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:24 am

OP here. The beautiful thing about sitting on the other side of the chair is that, within reason, I can ask whatever I want as long I don't violate any anti-discrimination laws.
That's a pretty low bar you're setting for yourself (i.e., don't be a racist, don't be sexist, etc.). But it's a too way street. Even if the candidate's resume was agreeable, it sounds like it would massively suck to ever have to work with you.

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Re: Language Skills Section of Resume - Don't Do This

Post by A. Nony Mouse » Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:58 am

Anonymous User wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I mean, if you put a language on your resume, you should be prepared to show your facility in it. Calling it resume "filler" seems kind of disingenuous, and there isn't really such a thing as "resume faux pas" that's not going to screw you over.
What's with the passive aggressive air quotes? She said she studied it for X years. Not that she was an expert. If I had put I studied the violin for X years and you were a expert, what type of facility would you expect me to demonstrate?
Yeah, you're right that they studied it for however many years, so that was a little unfair. I guess my issue is really putting it on the resume as a skill (as already discussed) - if the language doesn't add anything to your candidacy, which 2 years of study isn't likely to, then don't put it on your resume as a skill, put it as an interest/hobby. Putting it elsewhere suggests you think the 2 years of study is information that's useful for evaluating your ability as an associate, and I don't think it is (but then, I think obvious resume padding looks worse than having a sparse resume). And I put "resume faux pas" in quotes because it seems to try to soften something that's just a not very good element of a resume, as if it's something an interviewer should overlook. My point's just that there's no reason to expect an interviewer to overlook or forgive an issue on your resume when there are so many candidates with perfect resumes.

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