Minneapolis/Twin Cities OCI Forum

[Duality]

Started this thread because the Minnesota Minority Recruitment Conference (MMRC) already happened (August 1st) and we were hijacking the general diversity fair thread. Local schools (Minnesota, St. Thomas, Hamline, and William Mitchell) don't start OCI for another couple of weeks, but I figured it wasn't too early to get this going.

Has anyone received callbacks from the MMRC? I've got a few, but haven't heard anything yet from the other firms I interviewed with.

For older students/real grown-up lawyers, what are your opinions on the Twin Cities legal market? Which firms are the best for young associates? Which are the worst? Any help/insight would be much appreciated.

Probably slightly outdated, but here's a good list of local firms by size alone: http://tcbmag.com/Lists-and-Research/BI ... oPid=18839

[Anonymous User]

Thanks for the thread.

Yes a bit too late, but a good information forum to share whether CBs went out or not.

I only got one call back from a small firm and am afraid to put the name down because Minneapolis is such a small market!

[Anonymous User]

That seems like a pretty good list. Here's another list from The Minnesota Lawyer that has very similar numbers: http://minnlawyer.com/2013/12/06/minnes ... irms-2014/. Also, some of you have heard this already, but Oppenheimer and Lindquist & Vennum are in merger talks. See --LinkRemoved--.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping this now that the first preselects for the University of Minnesota's OCI have gone out.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping again since University of Minnesota OCI starts tomorrow. Anyone have any thoughts on gray plant mooty or Winthrop & Weinstine?

[Anonymous User]

Bumping again since University of Minnesota OCI starts tomorrow. Anyone have any thoughts on Gray Plant Mooty or Winthrop & Weinstine?

I have two cents on GPM.

Extremely high partner-associate ratio because back in the days, instead of raising associate salary to match the market, they promoted a bunch into partners under a five-year track. I'm sure it's a great firm, but considering that they don't have mandatory partner retirement (inside source tells me); either (1) they will be extremely conservative in hiring or (2) probably will be very difficult for an associate to make partner in the near future.

[Anonymous User]

Bumping again since University of Minnesota OCI starts tomorrow. Anyone have any thoughts on Gray Plant Mooty or Winthrop & Weinstine?

This is entirely second-hand because I've never worked at gray plant mooty, but I've heard good things about the firm's culture from some of my friends who have worked there.

[Anonymous User]

I summered at or did considerable research on RKMC, Faegre, Dorsey, and Oppenheimer. If anyone wants to ask anything about these firms, feel free to ask or PM me.

[Duality]

What are your thoughts on RKMC, Faegre, and Dorsey? In particular, which place do you think is the best for a young associate to start out and why? Which is best for long term opportunities? Any other input?

Anyone else have commentary on those firms? What about Stinson or Briggs?

[Anonymous User]

Dorsey--they work their summers and associates to death. Great place to be a partner though. But most litigation departments have a younger partnership, so don't ever expect to make partner. Huge summer class--something like 25 this summer to Faegre's 15. But they have traditionally been willing to no-offer as much as half the class.
Stinson--LSD was struggling financially so the merger has been a good choice money-wise, but some people have left because of the culture shift. The firm they merged with is more button-up/traditional. And now I believe the largest office is out of Minneapolis which changes the management structure.
RKMC--Only litigation. They are known for providing great hands-on training to their summers and associates. I think they have the top-ranked summer program in Minneapolis. They used to have the label of sweatshop, but they became cognizant of this and now the summers/associates don't work more than any other big firm. Partners make more money here than at any other firm in town, but most associates won't get that far.
Oppenheimer--They are merging with Lindquist so who knows what will happen. But both Lindquist and Oppenheimer are partner-heavy which can mean associates have to fight junior partners for work. Lindquist has a stronger corporate group, and Oppenheimer has a stronger lit group.
Faegre--I heard a rumble that some associates have struggled to meet billables post-merger. But the people I know there are relatively happy, but they don't expect to stay longer than a few years.

Best to start out at RKMC for the training or Faegre because it's the biggest and easier to start there and work down---probably shouldn't anticipate making partner at RKMC, Faegre, or Dorsey. But you can go in-house from any of these firms or lateral to gov't/smaller firm.

[minnbills]

Faegre is the biggest sweatshop in town.

[Anonymous User]

Dorsey--they work their summers and associates to death. Great place to be a partner though. But most litigation departments have a younger partnership, so don't ever expect to make partner. Huge summer class--something like 25 this summer to Faegre's 15. But they have traditionally been willing to no-offer as much as half the class.
Stinson--LSD was struggling financially so the merger has been a good choice money-wise, but some people have left because of the culture shift. The firm they merged with is more button-up/traditional. And now I believe the largest office is out of Minneapolis which changes the management structure.
RKMC--Only litigation. They are known for providing great hands-on training to their summers and associates. I think they have the top-ranked summer program in Minneapolis. They used to have the label of sweatshop, but they became cognizant of this and now the summers/associates don't work more than any other big firm. Partners make more money here than at any other firm in town, but most associates won't get that far.
Oppenheimer--They are merging with Lindquist so who knows what will happen. But both Lindquist and Oppenheimer are partner-heavy which can mean associates have to fight junior partners for work. Lindquist has a stronger corporate group, and Oppenheimer has a stronger lit group.
Faegre--I heard a rumble that some associates have struggled to meet billables post-merger. But the people I know there are relatively happy, but they don't expect to stay longer than a few years.

Best to start out at RKMC for the training or Faegre because it's the biggest and easier to start there and work down---probably shouldn't anticipate making partner at RKMC, Faegre, or Dorsey. But you can go in-house from any of these firms or lateral to gov't/smaller firm.

Lol at a lot of the Dorsey stuff. No offers have been 0-2 a class since the crash. Also disagree with the suggestion that they work summers to death (and really associates, at least relative to what I consider 'to death' to mean).

Former Dorsey associate - I'll take questions if anyone is interested.

[Duality]

Best to start out at RKMC for the training or Faegre because it's the biggest and easier to start there and work down---probably shouldn't anticipate making partner at RKMC, Faegre, or Dorsey. But you can go in-house from any of these firms or lateral to gov't/smaller firm.

Let's say that I want there to be a chance of making partner (not that I have any idea what I'll want to be doing 10 years from now). Where would you recommend starting out, if not RKMC, Faegre, or Dorsey?

Lol at a lot of the Dorsey stuff. No offers have been 0-2 a class since the crash. Also disagree with the suggestion that they work summers to death (and really associates, at least relative to what I consider 'to death' to mean).

Former Dorsey associate - I'll take questions if anyone is interested.

What were the best and worst parts about your time at Dorsey? If you're comfortable answering broadly, where did you go (large firm, in-house, small firm, etc.) and why did you leave? What are the partnership odds? How are associates treated there? How was the training? Lastly, where would you recommend starting out?

Thanks to those who have answered. For others like me who aren't from the Twin Cities area, this is immensely helpful.

[Anonymous User]

Best to start out at RKMC for the training or Faegre because it's the biggest and easier to start there and work down---probably shouldn't anticipate making partner at RKMC, Faegre, or Dorsey. But you can go in-house from any of these firms or lateral to gov't/smaller firm.

Let's say that I want there to be a chance of making partner (not that I have any idea what I'll want to be doing 10 years from now). Where would you recommend starting out, if not RKMC, Faegre, or Dorsey?

Lol at a lot of the Dorsey stuff. No offers have been 0-2 a class since the crash. Also disagree with the suggestion that they work summers to death (and really associates, at least relative to what I consider 'to death' to mean).

Former Dorsey associate - I'll take questions if anyone is interested.

What were the best and worst parts about your time at Dorsey? If you're comfortable answering broadly, where did you go (large firm, in-house, small firm, etc.) and why did you leave? What are the partnership odds? How are associates treated there? How was the training? Lastly, where would you recommend starting out?

Thanks to those who have answered. For others like me who aren't from the Twin Cities area, this is immensely helpful.

Anon Former Dorsey Associate here -

I want to be careful about how much I share about myself. Despite being a large office, there really isn't that much attrition and both the reason I left and the job I took after leaving might well out me. Suffice it to say I left for an opportunity that fit my goals better than staying put.

As to the best/worst parts of my experience, I think the best parts were the people I worked with and the reasonably high level of responsibility I got fairly early on. I largely found people kind and respectful of my non-work time, and willing to give increasing responsibility provided you proved worthy of it. There were a few downsides. Some of them would be common to any big law firm. I worked a lot of hours, although nothing even approaching what friends in NYC were billing. I also didn't really enjoy the constant drumbeat about compensation. Associates were dissatisfied with the system when I was there, and I've heard recently from people still there that first year compensation is now lagging behind not just Briggs and Winthrop (which pay 120 if memory serves) but also Faegre, which upped first year salaries this year (to 115 I believe).

Partnership prospects are poor, but that never bothered me as partner was never my goal. I will say the move to a two tiered structure hasn't always been popular, and there is a large (and unseen to outsiders) class of non-equity income partners. Plus the track has (especially in some groups that have large backlogs from the recession) moved to a 9-10+ year path with many people going up for partner several times. I have a hard time imagining this is different at other firms in the cities, but I could be wrong.

I think associates are generally treated well and training is fine, but generalizing on these points is almost impossible. The reason being that the way you are treated and the amount of feedback you are given is largely a function of whatever group of people you end up working with. This would be true anywhere you go except maybe a satellite office of a big firm or a small firm. Formal training programs are annoying and achieve nothing, so don't focus on those.

The final point (where you should start out) depends on too many variables for me to give an answer. If you have no idea what you want to do or where you want to work, Dorsey and Faegre remain the best places to start off. They are general service, have strong practices across a wide variety of areas, and a strong brand. If you're sure you want to be a litigator then throw RKMC in the mix. On the other hand if you have some specific subspecialty you'd like then there are differences between even these firms that might not be obvious. For instance if you want to be a securities litigator then Dorsey is the place. Products liability/mass tort? Faegre. IP or plaintiff's side antitrust lit? RKMC.

[Anonymous User]

Well as an SA at Dorsey this summer I can say the workload was more than my friends at Faegre or RKMC. I worked every weekend and most nights until well past 7pm. My experience was not unusual for summers or as I understand it young associates.

[Anonymous User]

Well as an SA at Dorsey this summer I can say the workload was more than my friends at Faegre or RKMC. I worked every weekend and most nights until well past 7pm. My experience was not unusual for summers or as I understand it young associates.

I am surprised by that. That certainly wasn't typical when I summered. In fact, I think I might have worked once or twice on a weekend and only a few times past 7. Nevertheless you're certainly right that those kinds of hours are not unusual for junior associates (in certain practice groups), although I never felt any facetime pressure to be in the office after 5 unless I had some specific reason to be there (either as a summer or an associate).

[Anonymous User]

Well as an SA at Dorsey this summer I can say the workload was more than my friends at Faegre or RKMC. I worked every weekend and most nights until well past 7pm. My experience was not unusual for summers or as I understand it young associates.

I also summered at Dorsey and never worked weekends or past 6:30... I guess it comes down to project management.

[Anonymous User]

Well as an SA at Dorsey this summer I can say the workload was more than my friends at Faegre or RKMC. I worked every weekend and most nights until well past 7pm. My experience was not unusual for summers or as I understand it young associates.

I also summered at Dorsey and never worked weekends or past 6:30... I guess it comes down to project management.

Exactly, I summered at RKMC (not this current summer) and there were people who were out by 6 and other summers who came in the on the weekends and worked at night. It just comes down to the individual (at least as a summer associate) - I didn't get the feeling RKMC was trying to overwork its summers in any way.

[Anonymous User]

Can anyone confirm/prove Faegre to $115K?

[Anonymous User]

Any CBs from RKMC?

[Anonymous User]

I got a CB from RKMC, but not through any formal interview process. I had lunch with an attorney there prior to OCIs and happened to get a CB soon after. I haven't heard one way or the other if anyone going through formal OCI has gotten a CB there yet.

[Anonymous User]

Faegre did NOT increase starting salaries. They are still on par with Dorsey for starting salaries and behind Briggs and some others.

As for the sweatshops in town... Just look at the latest issue of AmLaw which includes mid level associate satisfaction surveys.

[Anonymous User]

So for us poor folk...anyone with access to AmLaw know how the Minneapolis mid-level associates feel?

[Anonymous User]

Among the Minneapolis firms included in the survey, here's the rankings (five point scale, average nationwide is 4.08):

1 - Fish & Richardson - 4.267
2 - Lindquist & Vennum - 4.233
3 - Dorsey & Whitney - 4.084
4 - Robins, Kaplan, Miller & Ciresi - 3.982
5 - Faegre Baker Daniels - 3.439

Minneapolis was actually the worst ranked city in the entire nation, falling even behind New York and other coastal areas typically viewed as the worse places to be. So even the highest ranked firms here can only claim to be "best of the worst." As for the rest...

[Anonymous User]

Any news from Lindquist?