3L OCI - Is trading up risky/worth it? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I just got an offer from my 2L summer employer, a V30 biglaw firm in NYC. Although I attend a school in the higher end of the T14, I didn't do that well grade-wise during 1L so I was happy to work at the firm I did. During 2L though, my grades were fantastic and I am thinking 3L EIP may be worth a shot for a V10. I am concerned about the risks though. What if my current firm got word of my shopping around? Worse yet, what if I ran into them while interviewing at other firms during OCI? If I didn't get a better job, how would this hurt my future at the firm?

Are these concerns legitimate, and if so, any strategies for minimizing the risk? Appreciate the help.

[Old Gregg]

I just got an offer from my 2L summer employer, a V30 biglaw firm in NYC. Although I attend a school in the higher end of the T14, I didn't do that well grade-wise during 1L so I was happy to work at the firm I did. During 2L though, my grades were fantastic and I am thinking 3L EIP may be worth a shot for a V10. I am concerned about the risks though. What if my current firm got word of my shopping around? Worse yet, what if I ran into them while interviewing at other firms during OCI? If I didn't get a better job, how would this hurt my future at the firm?

Are these concerns legitimate, and if so, any strategies for minimizing the risk? Appreciate the help.

Don't worry about any of this. Just interview to your heart's content. Your concern should be whether it's worth giving up any comfort/fit you have with your V30 for the speculative benefit of a V10 where you might or might not fit at all. Prestige-whoring for the sake of prestige-whoring isn't worth it. There has to be other reasons.

[Anonymous User]

I'm in the exact same situation as the OP and I've also heard from people that firms are used to/understand people moving around after 3L and your V30 most likely hires a few 3Ls as well every year (and they're not going to "feel bad" for the other firm that they poached their 3Ls from).

Can someone who has successfully done "3L OCI" give us some guidance on cover letters???

[09042014]

Firms don't really gossip. But Cravath will call your firm and ask if you really got an offer.

[Anonymous User]

Firms don't really gossip. But Cravath will call your firm and ask if you really got an offer.

I don't know about gossip, but firm recruiters do know and talk to one another, so there is a non-zero chance that word will get back to the 2L firm.

[Old Gregg]

Firms don't really gossip. But Cravath will call your firm and ask if you really got an offer.

I don't know about gossip, but firm recruiters do know and talk to one another, so there is a non-zero chance that word will get back to the 2L firm.

There's a non-zero chance that a lot of things can happen during OCI. But, believe it or not, you're not the first thing that'll come to mind when recruiters talk to each other. And when a recruiter knows that someone from another recruiter's firm is interviewing with them, that recruiter will know better than to discuss even the fact that you're interviewing with them. You know why? Because their job.

But you're so keen to discuss non-zero chances in this thread, let's also discuss other non-zero chances:
1) What if a meteorite smashes into the hotel where your OCI is held?
2) What if you there's massive subway delays preventing you from showing up to your interviews on time?
3) What if Obama decides to forgive all student loans, which makes you decide not to do big law altogether and do your interviews?

I'm getting tired of typing out all these non-zero chances. Maybe someone else can take over.

[Mredav44]

Instead of using the word "non-zero", just take away this pathetic adjective... there is a chance, not a non-zero chance. holy shit

[Old Gregg]

Instead of using the word "non-zero", just take away this pathetic adjective... there is a chance, not a non-zero chance. holy shit

That adjective is only marginally less stupid, and my post above still addresses this "chance." Holy shit right?

[Anonymous User]

At a 100% offer firm. Do you accept the offer on the spot, even if you intend on doing 3L OCI? And if you accept another offer, do you call your firm and rescind the acceptance?

Or when the offer is given, do you just ask how long the offer is good for and thank them without committing? That feels cagey to me, but perhaps it's the most honest.

Really like the firm I'm with. Plan on doing 3L OCI because my practice area interests have changed since last year when I chose them for the summer. But I want to be classy / an adult about this.

[09042014]

At a 100% offer firm. Do you accept the offer on the spot, even if you intend on doing 3L OCI? And if you accept another offer, do you call your firm and rescind the acceptance?

Or when the offer is given, do you just ask how long the offer is good for and thank them without committing? That feels cagey to me, but perhaps it's the most honest.

Really like the firm I'm with. Plan on doing 3L OCI because my practice area interests have changed since last year when I chose them for the summer. But I want to be classy / an adult about this.

You get to november 1. So don't accept until then.

[ResIpsa21]

Instead of using the word "non-zero", just take away this pathetic adjective... there is a chance, not a non-zero chance. holy shit

That adjective is only marginally less stupid, and my post above still addresses this "chance." Holy shit right?

Chance = noun.

If you didn't like your V30 or you think a V10 is going to get you a particular exit opportunity that you can't get at the V30, feel free to interview. Even if it got back to your V30, it wouldn't be a big deal. They won't pull your offer for shopping around. But don't do more interviews just because of misguided law student preftige whoring.

[jbagelboy]

I just got an offer from my 2L summer employer, a V30 biglaw firm in NYC. Although I attend a school in the higher end of the T14, I didn't do that well grade-wise during 1L so I was happy to work at the firm I did. During 2L though, my grades were fantastic and I am thinking 3L EIP may be worth a shot for a V10. I am concerned about the risks though. What if my current firm got word of my shopping around? Worse yet, what if I ran into them while interviewing at other firms during OCI? If I didn't get a better job, how would this hurt my future at the firm?

Are these concerns legitimate, and if so, any strategies for minimizing the risk? Appreciate the help.

Don't worry about any of this. Just interview to your heart's content. Your concern should be whether it's worth giving up any comfort/fit you have with your V30 for the speculative benefit of a V10 where you might or might not fit at all. Prestige-whoring for the sake of prestige-whoring isn't worth it. There has to be other reasons.

There are a good number of "V30" firms that I'd rather be at than some "V10's", so this approach seems totally erroneous. If there's a specific practice group you want to work in that's much stronger than your current firm, go ahead and try, but I'd revamp your perspective on recruiting and career wrt online surveys

Also don't think they'll stop caring about your 1L grades. Vast majority of successful 3L OCI applicants are those that could have gotten those same jobs as 2L's. Good luck though

[Anonymous User]

At a 100% offer firm. Do you accept the offer on the spot, even if you intend on doing 3L OCI? And if you accept another offer, do you call your firm and rescind the acceptance?

Or when the offer is given, do you just ask how long the offer is good for and thank them without committing? That feels cagey to me, but perhaps it's the most honest.

Really like the firm I'm with. Plan on doing 3L OCI because my practice area interests have changed since last year when I chose them for the summer. But I want to be classy / an adult about this.

The general rule is that you cannot do additional recruiting if you accept. From what I hear, there can be pretty serious consequences if you accept and then renege.

So take DF's advice--just don't accept the offer until you're ready. Thank them and confirm the timeline. Also, they might ask you why you need additional time, so have an answer.

[royilae]

At a 100% offer firm. Do you accept the offer on the spot, even if you intend on doing 3L OCI? And if you accept another offer, do you call your firm and rescind the acceptance?

Or when the offer is given, do you just ask how long the offer is good for and thank them without committing? That feels cagey to me, but perhaps it's the most honest.

Really like the firm I'm with. Plan on doing 3L OCI because my practice area interests have changed since last year when I chose them for the summer. But I want to be classy / an adult about this.

I've heard that firms literally don't care if you accept on the spot or not - they're not super attached to entry-level associates either way.

[ResIpsa21]

The general rule is that you cannot do additional recruiting if you accept. From what I hear, there can be pretty serious consequences if you accept and then renege.

Absolutely disagree with this. I knew plenty of people who accepted biglaw offers and then did interviews with top-tier government offices and reneged on their firms when they got government offers. There were no consequences. Remember that your firm will throw you out on the street the very second it benefits them to do so. You don't owe them anything. The further we get from the 2009 deferrals / layoffs / no-offers, the more people forget this fundamental rule of biglaw: look out for yourself first, second, and third.

[Anonymous User]

The general rule is that you cannot do additional recruiting if you accept. From what I hear, there can be pretty serious consequences if you accept and then renege.

Absolutely disagree with this. I knew plenty of people who accepted biglaw offers and then did interviews with top-tier government offices and reneged on their firms when they got government offers. There were no consequences. Remember that your firm will throw you out on the street the very second it benefits them to do so. You don't owe them anything. The further we get from the 2009 deferrals / layoffs / no-offers, the more people forget this fundamental rule of biglaw: look out for yourself first, second, and third.

Uh... except OP is talking about biglaw. And you're talking about government. Read the original post...and the rest of this conversation re: V30 --> V10. What I said, which is on point re: reneging for another biglaw firm, does not apply to clerking either.

Source? Career services + relative who is a V10 partner, who let me know it's a major faux pas to renege after accepting for the kind of trade-up situation that's being discussed. The worst consequence is that the firm OP trades up to withdraws the offer, and I am told that this has happened before. If OP is still able to get through, I was told that s/he develops a negative reputation early on.

edited to preserve some anonymity.

[Anonymous User]

Also regarding the government example, NALP allows you to accept government offers and "renege" until April so people who dropped firm for government/clerkships weren't breaking any rules or disappointing their firms.

[ResIpsa21]

Career services + relative who is a V10 partner, who let me know it's a major faux pas to renege after accepting for the kind of trade-up situation that's being discussed. The worst consequence is that the firm OP trades up to withdraws the offer, and I am told that this has happened before. If OP is still able to get through, I was told that s/he develops a negative reputation early on.

This is illogical. Why would a firm offer a 3L in the first place if it planned to withdraw the offer if the 3L accepted? We are all at-will employees, telling a biglaw firm "yes" and then "no" three weeks later makes absolutely no difference to them vs. "maybe" and then "no" three weeks later. It's not like you're accepting a $50k clerkship bonus and then bailing out a week later.

Career services and your V10 partner have inherent bias in their opinions. Career services does not want students from their law school to look bad for reneging on offers. V10 partners don't like it when summer associates go to different firms after 3L. The fact remains that only OP is looking out for OP's only career, and as long as OP is gainfully employed, everyone else who's offended by OP's decision can go screw. I doubt anyone at the new firm would even know OP reneged on an offer. Not sure if above anon has experience with biglaw, but nobody really cares about this sort of thing.

[Anonymous User]

Career services + relative who is a V10 partner, who let me know it's a major faux pas to renege after accepting for the kind of trade-up situation that's being discussed. The worst consequence is that the firm OP trades up to withdraws the offer, and I am told that this has happened before. If OP is still able to get through, I was told that s/he develops a negative reputation early on.

This is illogical. Why would a firm offer a 3L in the first place if it planned to withdraw the offer if the 3L accepted? We are all at-will employees, telling a biglaw firm "yes" and then "no" three weeks later makes absolutely no difference to them vs. "maybe" and then "no" three weeks later. It's not like you're accepting a $50k clerkship bonus and then bailing out a week later.

Career services and your V10 partner have inherent bias in their opinions. Career services does not want students from their law school to look bad for reneging on offers. V10 partners don't like it when summer associates go to different firms after 3L. The fact remains that only OP is looking out for OP's only career, and as long as OP is gainfully employed, everyone else who's offended by OP's decision can go screw. I doubt anyone at the new firm would even know OP reneged on an offer. Not sure if above anon has experience with biglaw, but nobody really cares about this sort of thing.

Wow. Now I feel like I'm talking to a wall... a firm would withdraw an offer because it is dishonest and unprofessional for a student to accept at one firm and trade up for another. It defeats the purpose of accepting at all, and firms will honor the accepted offers at other firms. Does this make sense? This happens in the business world as well. A colleague of mine got blacklisted by bulge bracket I-banks after he reneged on an offer. Not that I'm equating the hiring practices of law and IBanking. Instead, I'm relaying information directly from the mouth of a partner (who is my relative, who was being candid with me, who was looking out for my interests, who was not a partner at my firm) who told me that law firms have withdrawn offers when foolhardy students try to renege and trade up.

[Old Gregg]

Firms also withdraw offers to students regardless of whether the student reneged (remember Kasowitz, etc.). Gotta look after yourself.

Law firms don't collude. I wouldn't accept an offer I knew I was going to reject, but I definitely wouldn't ignore a great opportunity that pops up after I've accepted an offer.

[Anonymous User]

ResIpsa21 here. Anon by mistake.

a firm would withdraw an offer because it is dishonest and unprofessional for a student to accept at one firm and trade up for another. It defeats the purpose of accepting at all, and firms will honor the accepted offers at other firms.

Still illogical. An offer from a 3L firm is an INVITATION to renege on the 2L firm. Firms doing 3L OCI always ask the student "did you get an offer from your 2L firm" so they know exactly what they're asking a student to do by extending an offer (unless the student lied, at which point, sure -- offer withdrawn, not that the firm would EVER find out). Your anecdotal evidence about your family member does not outweigh the fact that firms actively seek to steal talent from other firms. That's the name of the game. If you don't believe me, see every lateral move ever made.

Firms also withdraw offers to students regardless of whether the student reneged (remember Kasowitz, etc.). Gotta look after yourself.

TCR.

[Anonymous User]

ResIpsa21 here. Anon by mistake.

a firm would withdraw an offer because it is dishonest and unprofessional for a student to accept at one firm and trade up for another. It defeats the purpose of accepting at all, and firms will honor the accepted offers at other firms.

Still illogical. An offer from a 3L firm is an INVITATION to renege on the 2L firm. Firms doing 3L OCI always ask the student "did you get an offer from your 2L firm" so they know exactly what they're asking a student to do by extending an offer (unless the student lied, at which point, sure -- offer withdrawn, not that the firm would EVER find out). Your anecdotal evidence about your family member does not outweigh the fact that firms actively seek to steal talent from other firms. That's the name of the game. If you don't believe me, see every lateral move ever made.

Are you trolling or something? An offer from a 3L firm is an invitation to renege? So you're saying that, when a 3L firm asks whether you have an outstanding offer, they expect a scenario where you also accepted it and deliberately went back on your word? That doesn't make sense. There's a difference when this "anecdotal advice" comes from a relative who is a partner and who had no reason to tell me something false. OP, if you're really thinking about reneging, perhaps talk to a real recruiter because there's enough in this forum to suggest that you should be wary.

I mean, seriously, the dude literally told me that he has seen 3L firm offers withdrawn.

[Anonymous User]

It seems like some of the confusion in the last few posts is over reneging once you've ACCEPTED an offer. If you receive your offer, don't accept right away and then try to do 3L OCI, firms don't get mad because that's just business. People may be annoyed if you ACCEPT (verbally/signed document) and then renege later but they're more upset about not having their numbers right because that firm might be looking to hire 3Ls as well.

[ResIpsa21]

It seems like some of the confusion in the last few posts is over reneging once you've ACCEPTED an offer. If you receive your offer, don't accept right away and then try to do 3L OCI, firms don't get mad because that's just business. People may be annoyed if you ACCEPT (verbally/signed document) and then renege later but they're more upset about not having their numbers right because that firm might be looking to hire 3Ls as well.

Good input. I think we can all agree with this. Definitely no question that it's safe to decline 2L firm's pending offer after receiving an offer in 3L OCI. Hopefully OP will be able to swing this.

The contentious issue is whether it's safe to renege on accepting 2L firm's offer after receiving an offer in 3L OCI. I say yes. My anonymous sparring partner says no. TCR is to avoid accepting 2L firm's offer for as long as possible; if forced to choose, accept the offer and continue interviewing at 3L OCI; before accepting an offer from 3L firm, make sure 3L firm knows that you would be reneging on 2L firm and ensure that this will not cause a problem. I firmly believe it will not because biglaw firms don't give a flying puck about each other. If I am wrong, the 3L firm will indicate such without any harm to student. If my salty anonymous friend is still lurking in this forum with fingers cocked to lodge further insults, perhaps s/he will agree with this most reasonable resolution.

[OfThriceandTen]

At a 100% offer firm. Do you accept the offer on the spot, even if you intend on doing 3L OCI? And if you accept another offer, do you call your firm and rescind the acceptance?

Or when the offer is given, do you just ask how long the offer is good for and thank them without committing? That feels cagey to me, but perhaps it's the most honest.

Really like the firm I'm with. Plan on doing 3L OCI because my practice area interests have changed since last year when I chose them for the summer. But I want to be classy / an adult about this.

You get to november 1. So don't accept until then.

NALP has changed the offer acceptance deadline to October 1.