Is DOJ honors the right move for me? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I want to start by saying that I am not assuming that I will necessarily get DOJ honors if I apply. That said, my OCS and some Professors tell me I have an excellent chance of at least being seriously considered, and I know that if I am offered the job I have to take it for obvious reasons. That's why I want to figure out now if it is the right career move for me (also, the application is a pain).

Long narrative about me: (stop here if you do not care...I will certainly not hold it against you)

I love my home state (desirable district, non-flyover...maybe one of the top 5, definitely one of the top 10 in terms of desirability/competitiveness/tough-to-break-into-market-ness). I have lived here almost my whole life. Went to a prestigious undergrad here, did a year of some "Corps" (trying to lack specificity where I can for the sake of anonymity) before law school here, went to a t30 powerhouse here with a great alumni network here.

Throughout LS, I have committed myself to public sector trial and appellate-type internships, and have gotten a ton of great experience, and have cultivated a great network in an area where network is very important. I then managed to secure a Fed Clerkship in my home district. Following this Fed clerkship, my home district has a prestigious entry level program for the AG's office which I think I have a great shot at, and if that does not work, I am optimistic about my chances of getting into one of the top DA"s offices in the area.

Unfortunately, there is not a USAO component that hires through DOJ honors in my district. For that reason, if I was to get selected for DOJ honors, I would either be at Main Justice or one of the participating components, all of which are far away from my home district.

My longer term goals are high-level prosecution (USAO in my home district would be amazing, but not essential) at the federal or state level in my home state...perhaps followed by politics in my home state (haven't really thought that far ahead).

In addition, I have tons of family here and a very serious significant other who has a pretty solid career going here, lots of friends, and a handful of great hobbies which, for reasons I won't really go into, would be difficult to engage in to the same level in other places.

All of that said, my CSO and Professors more or less called me immature for even considering not applying to the DOJ honors for the sole reason of not wanting to move. At the end of the day, I feel like even if I could do what I want to do at a federal level as an entry level attorney, will I really be happy so far away from everything I know and love? I passed up a bunch of higher ranked schools to stay in this area for LS...and now would I really just let it all go and leave? They tell me it's temporary, that I am not looking at the big picture, but my home USAO is pretty tough to get into and I picture it being a while before I could get in, if I could ever get in. Additionally, I have to think that a fed clerkship in my home district is worth something substantial in terms of a future USAO application, but I really am not sure.

If you stayed with the post this long, I appreciate it. Any general thoughts or advice would be awesome.

[Citizen Genet]

All of that said, my CSO and Professors more or less called me immature for even considering not applying to the DOJ honors for the sole reason of not wanting to move. At the end of the day, I feel like even if I could do what I want to do at a federal level as an entry level attorney, will I really be happy so far away from everything I know and love? I passed up a bunch of higher ranked schools to stay in this area for LS...and now would I really just let it all go and leave? They tell me it's temporary, that I am not looking at the big picture, but my home USAO is pretty tough to get into and I picture it being a while before I could get in, if I could ever get in. Additionally, I have to think that a fed clerkship in my home district is worth something substantial in terms of a future USAO application, but I really am not sure.

My thoughts, in no organized fashion:
-Screw what CSO or prawfs say. It's not immature to have a geographic preference that is centered on wanting to have a balanced social and family life. So you're not crazy to think about not applying.
-Do everything you can to have a sit down lunch with one of the high level AUSAs in your home district. Let them know your goals and ask for their input. This will be really valuable for a lot of reasons, top of which is it gets you on their radar as an attractive candidate who has a sincere interest in doing the type of work they do. It will also help you get a feel for what type of applicants they take--are they looking for someone with hometown pride or do they just hire the prettiest resume in the stack. These things vary district-to-district.
-Any of the litigating components of the Honors Program would be incredible experience to eventually become an AUSA in your home district. Having the connection to home and that on your resume, I think you'd be a shoe-in for your district as long as they are hiring around the time that you are looking to lateral in. (And as long as you start getting your name in front of them.) But whether the reduced chance at USAO is worth the personal sacrifices is going to be something only you can determine. Working out of Main Justice Crim Division can be exhausting; in some components, you're looking at travelling at least a quarter of the year. Working at a USAO in another district is less so. But all of them are incredible experiences for ending up where you want.

[mw115]

Atlanta or Seattle?

Anyway, agree with everything the above poster said. I will reiterate that it is much easier to transfer from one USAO to another than it is to just get straight in. Once you are in the federal government system, it is infinitely easier to get fed jobs than it is outside of it.

However, it doesn't sound like your main goal is USAO. (If it is, you should definitely figure out how hiring in the district works. Knowing whether a district is DA heavy or resume heavy is very valuable). If high level prosecution in your home district is the goal I think that you should stay in home state. In my experience, the AG's office is a really great place for high-level prosecution work and will put you in close contact with your state's USAO's on a pretty regular basis. And yes, the fed clerkship in your home district will help you down the line if you want USAO.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. let's just say for the sake of argument that there will be an opening at the USAO in my home district whenever I want to apply.

let's say I do main justice through DOJ honors--how long would I have to wait (working in main justice) until I have a real shot?

how does this length of time compare to another USAO?

and how would this length of time compare to a situation where I have been working on the state level in my home state?

[Anonymous User]

I moved for a DOJ honors gig (and I spent my whole pre-law school career moving for jobs as well). I would make the same decision again, but there are things I regret about it. There's no reason you should feel you have to move if you can achieve what you want to achieve locally.

Two things maybe to keep in mind: schools love to be able to say they've placed students in high-profile jobs like DOJ Honors; and academics almost invariably have to move wherever to get academic jobs. Those things probably influence what your CSO/profs are saying.

[Anonymous User]

I moved for a DOJ honors gig (and I spent my whole pre-law school career moving for jobs as well). I would make the same decision again, but there are things I regret about it. There's no reason you should feel you have to move if you can achieve what you want to achieve locally.

Two things maybe to keep in mind: schools love to be able to say they've placed students in high-profile jobs like DOJ Honors; and academics almost invariably have to move wherever to get academic jobs. Those things probably influence what your CSO/profs are saying.

what do you regret about it, if you don't mind my asking?

and why, in light of what you regret, would you do it again?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. let's just say for the sake of argument that there will be an opening at the USAO in my home district whenever I want to apply.

let's say I do main justice through DOJ honors--how long would I have to wait (working in main justice) until I have a real shot?

how does this length of time compare to another USAO?

and how would this length of time compare to a situation where I have been working on the state level in my home state?

This will depend almost entirely on the hiring preferences/policies at your home USAO. I don't think that the length of time will differ particularly for any of these - whatever they consider a decent amount of experience will be the same whichever of these three you do (my district generally hires people with 3 years of experience and up, maybe sometimes a little less, but that doesn't mean other districts do the same). More important will be what kind of experience your home USAO values. Experience at another USAO will pretty much always "count," and I would think main justice would, too (though it might depend a little on what kind of work you do through main justice). As for working at the state level, some USAOs very much like to hire state prosecutors (especially from their "home" state), and so working at the state level would be much like other USAO experience (in that you'd be a line prosecutor and that would be desirable experience). However, other USAOs very much like to hire fancy pedigrees out of biglaw, in which case doing state work might put you at a disadvantage for such a district (over the other options out of Honors). So as Citizen Genet suggested, find out what your home district prefers. (This can change with changes in US Attorney, but you can't look into a crystal ball, so you just do the best you can.)

[Anonymous User]

I moved for a DOJ honors gig (and I spent my whole pre-law school career moving for jobs as well). I would make the same decision again, but there are things I regret about it. There's no reason you should feel you have to move if you can achieve what you want to achieve locally.

Two things maybe to keep in mind: schools love to be able to say they've placed students in high-profile jobs like DOJ Honors; and academics almost invariably have to move wherever to get academic jobs. Those things probably influence what your CSO/profs are saying.

what do you regret about it, if you don't mind my asking?

and why, in light of what you regret, would you do it again?

I miss the city I lived in before a LOT - it's one of my favorite places on earth. I miss my law school friends (I didn't develop a huge network of friends in law school, but the ones I made, I miss), and I miss having 5 years more of being settled in a community (both personal and legal - I feel like I had a legal network there that I don't have here, at least, not yet). There are a lot of cool things about where I live now, but it's not a place I would have chosen apart from the job, and in a new place you always kind of have to start over from scratch. (This wouldn't be so bad except I've lived in 6 different cities since graduating college, so not feeling rooted is getting old.)

I would do it again because I wanted this job, and for a whole bunch of personal reasons (some reasonable, some not) I've become conditioned to prioritize career advancement over personal preference. There are a lot of good reasons why this job in this location worked for me, and personally, I would always wonder "what if??" if I didn't go after the job. (My SO moved with me, which helps a lot; we have done long-distance for jobs, but it's just not worth it anymore.)

[mw115]

OP here. let's just say for the sake of argument that there will be an opening at the USAO in my home district whenever I want to apply.

let's say I do main justice through DOJ honors--how long would I have to wait (working in main justice) until I have a real shot?

how does this length of time compare to another USAO?

and how would this length of time compare to a situation where I have been working on the state level in my home state?

I'd say in the broadest, generalist terms of value of ultimately moving to a USAO, it would go 1) another USAO, 2) State AG, 3) Main Justice (depending on where you work - unlikely Antitrust would have much sway), 4) DA. All would be valuable though, and it's impossible to say with certainty whether one is definitively valued over another. This is simply gleaned from the makeup of my colleagues.

[Anonymous User]

I moved for a DOJ honors gig (and I spent my whole pre-law school career moving for jobs as well). I would make the same decision again, but there are things I regret about it. There's no reason you should feel you have to move if you can achieve what you want to achieve locally.

Two things maybe to keep in mind: schools love to be able to say they've placed students in high-profile jobs like DOJ Honors; and academics almost invariably have to move wherever to get academic jobs. Those things probably influence what your CSO/profs are saying.

what do you regret about it, if you don't mind my asking?

and why, in light of what you regret, would you do it again?

I miss the city I lived in before a LOT - it's one of my favorite places on earth. I miss my law school friends (I didn't develop a huge network of friends in law school, but the ones I made, I miss), and I miss having 5 years more of being settled in a community (both personal and legal - I feel like I had a legal network there that I don't have here, at least, not yet). There are a lot of cool things about where I live now, but it's not a place I would have chosen apart from the job, and in a new place you always kind of have to start over from scratch. (This wouldn't be so bad except I've lived in 6 different cities since graduating college, so not feeling rooted is getting old.)

I would do it again because I wanted this job, and for a whole bunch of personal reasons (some reasonable, some not) I've become conditioned to prioritize career advancement over personal preference. There are a lot of good reasons why this job in this location worked for me, and personally, I would always wonder "what if??" if I didn't go after the job. (My SO moved with me, which helps a lot; we have done long-distance for jobs, but it's just not worth it anymore.)

Would you have done things differently if you had known in advance that (1) your SO wouldn't or couldn't move with you, or (2) you knew that, if your SO were to move with you, s/he would have had a really tough time with it/really would not have wanted to do it/possibly may have resented you for the fact that she did it for you when it was clear she did not want to?

[Anonymous User]

OP here. let's just say for the sake of argument that there will be an opening at the USAO in my home district whenever I want to apply.

let's say I do main justice through DOJ honors--how long would I have to wait (working in main justice) until I have a real shot?

how does this length of time compare to another USAO?

and how would this length of time compare to a situation where I have been working on the state level in my home state?

I'd say in the broadest, generalist terms of value of ultimately moving to a USAO, it would go 1) another USAO, 2) State AG, 3) Main Justice (depending on where you work - unlikely Antitrust would have much sway), 4) DA. All would be valuable though, and it's impossible to say with certainty whether one is definitively valued over another. This is simply gleaned from the makeup of my colleagues.

interesting--so you think State AG would have comparable or even more sway than main justice?

[mw115]

I work in the main office of a "medium" district, but we've hired 3 people in crim since I've been here. 1 came from Big Law and 2 came from the State AG. This is true with most of our branch offices and neighboring districts too, and seems to be a trend everywhere.

The big reason is that people from the State AG are often seconded to USAO's as SAUSA's for cases that have some state involvement (often Medicare/Medicaid fraud). Once your a SAUSA in the district, its not difficult to become a AUSA.

Also, this is just what I think from what I've observed, I am by no means an authority.

P.S. I faced the same dilemma re: SO coming out of law school. I can say that if your SO is very important to you, as mine was, I think its a no-brainer. In the immortal words of LeBron James, "happy wife, happy life."

[Anonymous User]

Anon with regrets here: no, I wouldn't have moved for this job if I knew my SO couldn't/wouldn't come with me (because it's a permanent job; I did move without them for a clerkship, but we mutually decided it was better that way, they were willing to move). One regret is the struggles they've had finding a job here.

But we sat down and hashed this all out before I applied and they were on board with going where I got a job this time (we kind of trade off doing that). We're not willing to do long distance any more. Also, if it matters, the SO is a spouse.