Firms in DFW with the Best Work-Life Balance Forum

[samn]

I am a rising 2L at SMU Dedman School of Law in Dallas. OCI is coming up soon, and I am trying to decide which firms to bid for. I have excellent grades (approximately top 5%), made Law Review, and have good legal writing experience from a small firm that gives me lots of responsibility (I've been drafting all sorts of briefs). References from professors or employers will be no problem, and I have good writing samples. Furthermore, I have a lot of professional experience from before attending law school.

I am wondering which firms in the DFW area have the best work-life balance. We recently had our second baby, and my son is about to turn three. The two most important things for me are: making enough money to service and pay back our loans (they will be approximately $150,000 at graduation) and still having time to spend with my family.

I understand that there just aren't (m)any legal jobs that require less than 50-60 hours a week when you first start out and that still pay enough to live on, so I want to be as realistic as necessary.

A few things I'm looking for: firms in which, if you meet your billable hours goals, it is not important for you "to be seen" at the office; firms that understand people who have families; and, if possible, firms that wouldn't require much more than 40-50 hours a week in the office (with the understanding that it will occasionally be more than that). We are used to living frugally, and I understand it would not be close to a biglaw salary. I really enjoy all areas of the law, so I am flexible there. I would prefer civil litigation work, but I am open-minded. I can answer any additional questions.

Thanks.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard great things about work/life at Haynes & Boone.

I clerked at Fulbright and thought work/life there was pretty good as well. Many/most of the senior associates and partners had a family and appeared to be not going through a divorce.

[Anonymous User]

I've heard great things about work/life at Haynes & Boone.

I clerked at Fulbright and thought work/life there was pretty good as well. Many/most of the senior associates and partners had a family and appeared to be not going through a divorce.

I've heard HayBo junior associate's hours hover around 2300 per year -- not sure how great people think that is or isn't.

[Anonymous User]

ATL surveys may be only slightly more reputable than Wikipedia, but according to this HB is ranked first and Fulbright fifth nationwide. But it might differ from office to office.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/11/the-best ... y-ratings/

[TooOld4This]

Cart way before the horse here. Apply everywhere. Once you have offers, you can do a lot more digging on these issues.

The unfortunate answer, though, is that work life balance isn't a firm by firm issue, but much more dependent on practice group, partners and projects. A firm with a nasty reputation for being a sweatshop can have pockets of sanity. A firm known as a lifestyle firm can have partners that rival the sweat shops. Also, people who lack the ability to set boundaries are likely to be working the high end if hours wherever they go.

[kalvano]

I've heard great things about work/life at Haynes & Boone.

I clerked at Fulbright and thought work/life there was pretty good as well. Many/most of the senior associates and partners had a family and appeared to be not going through a divorce.

My friend is a junior at H&B and is on track for around 2250 hours. That's not going to be conducive to a good family life.

[oblitigate]

I am a rising 2L at SMU Dedman School of Law in Dallas. OCI is coming up soon, and I am trying to decide which firms to bid for. I have excellent grades (approximately top 5%), made Law Review, and have good legal writing experience from a small firm that gives me lots of responsibility (I've been drafting all sorts of briefs). References from professors or employers will be no problem, and I have good writing samples. Furthermore, I have a lot of professional experience from before attending law school.

I am wondering which firms in the DFW area have the best work-life balance. We recently had our second baby, and my son is about to turn three. The two most important things for me are: making enough money to service and pay back our loans (they will be approximately $150,000 at graduation) and still having time to spend with my family.

I understand that there just aren't (m)any legal jobs that require less than 50-60 hours a week when you first start out and that still pay enough to live on, so I want to be as realistic as necessary.

A few things I'm looking for: firms in which, if you meet your billable hours goals, it is not important for you "to be seen" at the office; firms that understand people who have families; and, if possible, firms that wouldn't require much more than 40-50 hours a week in the office (with the understanding that it will occasionally be more than that). We are used to living frugally, and I understand it would not be close to a biglaw salary. I really enjoy all areas of the law, so I am flexible there. I would prefer civil litigation work, but I am open-minded. I can answer any additional questions.

Thanks.

What's your prior work experience/undergrad degrees? Interests . . . litigation?

[Anonymous User]

I've heard great things about work/life at Haynes & Boone.

I clerked at Fulbright and thought work/life there was pretty good as well. Many/most of the senior associates and partners had a family and appeared to be not going through a divorce.

I've heard HayBo junior associate's hours hover around 2300 per year -- not sure how great people think that is or isn't.

I would take this with a grain of salt. Like any firm, the hours are going to change depending on the section you practice in and the partners you work for. HB is a wonderful firm. Everyone I have encountered at HB seem happy and have lives. It didn't seem like a sweatshop at all. HB even has a substantial part-time program for parents. Again, some sections are more daily 9-6ish...others are feast or famine. When you're looking at firms, just try to get a sense of their practice areas. Practice area will have a lot more weight on how much you're working than the firm in general IMO.

[unlicensedpotato]

I think OP is probably looking for info about smaller firms than HayBoo and Fulbright.

[samn]

What's your prior work experience/undergrad degrees? Interests . . . litigation?

My undergraduate degree is in Philosophy. My only real legal experience is with a firm I started working for the summer before I started law school. They are small, so I have a lot of responsibility. For instance, I drafted a successful Plaintiff's Motion for Summary Judgment in the area of Employment Law.

Before that, I was the Director of Development for a small Manhattan think tank, and, before that, I was high school math teacher/school administrator at a private school in Queens (the school was underfunded, so I had to wear a lot of hats).

I'm interested in Litigation and in Labor and Employment Law. I enjoyed all of my 1L classes, though, so, as far as I know, I am pretty flexible. I would much rather do something "boring" and have decent hours than have the most interesting job in the world but have no time with my family. I can become interested in whatever I do.

When you're looking at firms, just try to get a sense of their practice areas. Practice area will have a lot more weight on how much you're working than the firm in general IMO

Does anyone have any tips on how to do this ("get a sense of their practice areas"), re: work life balance? There is a general sense among students I've talked to that asking about "how many hours attorneys work" at a certain firm will come off wrong.

I think OP is probably looking for info about smaller firms than HayBoo and Fulbright.

In theory, I am open-minded to both. But, yes, it's possible/likely that what I'm looking for will lead me to smaller firms. Here are some smaller firms I'll be applying to that I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on: Gray Reed & McGraw, P.C.; Kelly, Hart & Hallman, LLP; and Strasburger & Price L.L.P.

Thanks to everyone for answering!

[kalvano]

The three you mentioned will be less busy than H&B, but still busy. It's the nature of large(ish) firms that they have a lot of work and they don't really care if you have personal stuff going on. Some are better than others, but it's just the way it is. Attorneys may be very happy at H&B, but that is relative to other firms, not a normal 9-5 job.

I can tell you that, in Dallas, one of the most important parts will be your commute. It's much easier to be productive and have a family life if you don't have to commute very much. Mine blows, and it's why I'm going to push to work from home once or twice a week soon. If you live close to the firm, that makes life much, much easier. But Kelly Hart is in Fort Worth, Strasburger is in Frisco and Dallas, and Reed is in Dallas. Do you live near downtown? If you live near Dallas, the commute to Fort Worth will be miserable.

Of those three, Reed is probably the best bet for work/life balance and driving sanity (if you live in Dallas).

OP, feel free to ask me anything or PM me. Recent SMU grad with a family working in a small firm.

[ilikebaseball]

What's your prior work experience/undergrad degrees? Interests . . . litigation?

My undergraduate degree is in Philosophy. My only real legal experience is with a firm I started working for the summer before I started law school. They are small, so I have a lot of responsibility. For instance, I drafted a successful Plaintiff's Motion for Summary Judgment in the area of Employment Law.

Before that, I was the Director of Development for a small Manhattan think tank, and, before that, I was high school math teacher/school administrator at a private school in Queens (the school was underfunded, so I had to wear a lot of hats).

I'm interested in Litigation and in Labor and Employment Law. I enjoyed all of my 1L classes, though, so, as far as I know, I am pretty flexible. I would much rather do something "boring" and have decent hours than have the most interesting job in the world but have no time with my family. I can become interested in whatever I do.

When you're looking at firms, just try to get a sense of their practice areas. Practice area will have a lot more weight on how much you're working than the firm in general IMO

Does anyone have any tips on how to do this ("get a sense of their practice areas"), re: work life balance? There is a general sense among students I've talked to that asking about "how many hours attorneys work" at a certain firm will come off wrong.

I think OP is probably looking for info about smaller firms than HayBoo and Fulbright.

In theory, I am open-minded to both. But, yes, it's possible/likely that what I'm looking for will lead me to smaller firms. Here are some smaller firms I'll be applying to that I'm wondering if anyone has an opinion on: Gray Reed & McGraw, P.C.; Kelly, Hart & Hallman, LLP; and Strasburger & Price L.L.P.

Thanks to everyone for answering!

I will likely be working a S & P once I graduate because I have a hook up, and can say that I have not heard one bad thing about it. Seems like its not too overloading, the tram takes you right there so you can avoid traffic, depending on where you are. The pay is really good. But its such a big firm, idk if the QOL totally depends on where you are within it. But that's my .02 about it

[oblitigate]

The three you mentioned will be less busy than H&B, but still busy. It's the nature of large(ish) firms that they have a lot of work and they don't really care if you have personal stuff going on. Some are better than others, but it's just the way it is. Attorneys may be very happy at H&B, but that is relative to other firms, not a normal 9-5 job.

I can tell you that, in Dallas, one of the most important parts will be your commute. It's much easier to be productive and have a family life if you don't have to commute very much. Mine blows, and it's why I'm going to push to work from home once or twice a week soon. If you live close to the firm, that makes life much, much easier. But Kelly Hart is in Fort Worth, Strasburger is in Frisco and Dallas, and Reed is in Dallas. Do you live near downtown? If you live near Dallas, the commute to Fort Worth will be miserable.

Of those three, Reed is probably the best bet for work/life balance and driving sanity (if you live in Dallas).

OP, feel free to ask me anything or PM me. Recent SMU grad with a family working in a small firm.

NALP puts S&P at 1600 minimum/yr; pretty low. OP: I'd check out litigation boutiques. Dallas has a lot. Check out Sayles|Warbner; Lynn Tillotson; Gruber Hurst; Malouf & Nockels; etc. Those will primarily be contingency fee practices, and will have very reasonable hours. It looks like you're competitive for this calibre--plus they'll pay $160k #liquid

[kalvano]

After the first year at Strasburger, I believe the hours go to 1920 plus 250 or so non-billable hours, so it's actually 2100+ requirement after your first year. I don't know how many of you guys are practicing, but it doesn't matter how great the firm is, hitting 2,000+ hours takes a lot of work.

OP definitely isn't getting hired at Gruber Hurst, they require a couple years experience. I know one of the name partners.

[legalese_retard]

If QOL is an absolute for you, then I would avoid any of the big firms. Many firms may try to make themselves out to be "lifestyle firms," but such a culture is difficult to maintain based on the nature of legal practice expected of big law firms. At the end of the day, your work life will depend on who you actually work for (i.e. the practice group and partners you are assigned to). One associate at S&P will tell you it's great, while another will tell you that it's miserable. For example, I have a friend that works in one of the transactional groups that loves it, while another friend recently quit because the partner he/she worked for was a yeller with face-time requirements. The same holds true with HayBoo. On the first day of work at HayBoo, the firm had an orientation where one of the partners told the associates that the firm should not be considered a "lifestyle" firm anymore and they should stop using that term in recruiting sessions at the law schools. Apparently, the partners were getting annoyed with associates complaining about hours and the requests they were making for flex-time.

I'm not saying HayBoo or SP are bad firms to work for, but take any advice or recommendation you get with a grain of salt. I think there are firms you can avoid because of extreme hourly expectations (i.e. mckool smith, Bickel Brewer, Susman Godfrey, etc), but again it will depend on the partners you work for. Since you are top 5%, you should get several bids at OCI. I would add a mix of firms and just pay attention to how the interviewers appear and act. Just because one firm pays less, does not mean the hours/COL will be better. For example, Thompson Coe pays first years less than 90K/year, but still expects billables of over 1800/year. Take advantage of the resources from OCS and talk to as many 3Ls as you can about the firms. You will find several on SMU Law Review that summered at these firms and can give some additional insight as well.

[Anonymous User]

OP definitely isn't getting hired at Gruber Hurst, they require a couple years experience. I know one of the name partners.

Same with Lynn Tilltoson; they very, very rarely hire without firm experience first and even then they require a clerkship. And whoever thought they'd have a better work-life balance is either getting bad info or making bad assumptions. Friends I know there are billing 2400/year.

[oblitigate]

OP definitely isn't getting hired at Gruber Hurst, they require a couple years experience. I know one of the name partners.

Same with Lynn Tilltoson; they very, very rarely hire without firm experience first and even then they require a clerkship. And whoever thought they'd have a better work-life balance is either getting bad info or making bad assumptions. Friends I know there are billing 2400/year.

I actually did assume that LT was a contingency/alternative fee practice based on part of their past docket. Whoopsie

[Anonymous User]

After the first year at Strasburger, I believe the hours go to 1920 plus 250 or so non-billable hours, so it's actually 2100+ requirement after your first year. I don't know how many of you guys are practicing, but it doesn't matter how great the firm is, hitting 2,000+ hours takes a lot of work.

OP definitely isn't getting hired at Gruber Hurst, they require a couple years experience. I know one of the name partners.

I know this is old but what do you mean by 250 non-billable. 1920+250 = 2170. I.E. 44 hours a week for 50 weeks. Does the 250 represent something else other than down hours?

[kalvano]

After the first year at Strasburger, I believe the hours go to 1920 plus 250 or so non-billable hours, so it's actually 2100+ requirement after your first year. I don't know how many of you guys are practicing, but it doesn't matter how great the firm is, hitting 2,000+ hours takes a lot of work.

OP definitely isn't getting hired at Gruber Hurst, they require a couple years experience. I know one of the name partners.

I know this is old but what do you mean by 250 non-billable. 1920+250 = 2170. I.E. 44 hours a week for 50 weeks. Does the 250 represent something else other than down hours?

That's a few years old. But this is from their NALP page:

2150 total hours required, including at least 1920 billable hours and at least 150 investment hours.

That's just goofy. As to your question, no, that's not "down hours." That's pro bono, client development, etc. It's work, it's just not work that can be billed to a client.