North Carolina Legal Market Forum

A1phatraz · Post by **A1phatraz** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:21 pm

Hello, I am am a rising 3L at a T2 in NJ/NYC. Currently at median and have a clerkship lined up with a NJ superior court judge for 2015-2016. My spouse is from NC and is pleading me to go back after my clerkship so my question to you all is what are my options? I am not from NC, but I did go to undergrad there. I'm interested in public interest work DA/PD/legal aid, and would also be open to small or midsized firms. I will graduate with about 60k law school loans.

I would prefer the bigger cities (charlotte/raleigh/greensboro).

Nomo · Post by **Nomo** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:03 pm

Not an expert on this question, but the LST stats for UNC aren't great. They are flat out bad for Wake Forest and Campbell. And they are downright terrible for North Carolina Central, Charlotte School of Law, and Elon. That's a sign of a pretty bad job market.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:08 pm

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:09 pm

I would definitely not make your decision about the NC job market based upon LST or any other anecdotal evidence. I'm a Wake grad and most folks in my class didn't have a hard time finding employment including myself. It all depends on 1. What you want to do and 2. How well you interview.

sinfiery · Post by **sinfiery** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:16 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I would definitely not make your decision about the NC job market based upon LST or any other anecdotal evidence. I'm a Wake grad and most folks in my class didn't have a hard time finding employment including myself. It all depends on 1. What you want to do and 2. How well you interview.

First of all, LST is the exact opposite of anecdotal evidence. What you wrote in that post is anecdotal evidence.

Secondly, 1/3rd of the WF class couldn't find any long term legal job 9 months after graduation, much less the one they were trying to obtain. Something tells me they didn't spend up to 230k for that outcome.

cliffs: Use LST (http://www.lstscorereports.com/schools/wake/2013/)

A1phatraz · Post by **A1phatraz** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:19 pm

I don't have any legal contacts down there, and only have contacts from undergrad. Do the da and pd offices down there hire many recent law school grads? What does the salary look like?

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:22 pm

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:28 pm

It's gonna be an uphill battle - I summered at one of the V100s in the state, but generally the class sizes are really, really small (even at my firm was 10 or less). I have a friend who went to UNC and is working for a ~50 attorney firm, and they only took 2 or 3 incoming associates. So you kind of face the dilemma in that the higher-end firms (V100 + MVA + RBH) have slightly larger classes but are very selective, but the lower-end smaller firms even if less selective have very small class sizes and have plenty of people from the local T1 schools (UNC, Wake) that are vying for them, and given that you're median at a lower ranked school that is out of the state, I just don't see how they'd pick you over them.

I guess you already have a clerkship, but if you could somehow swing an article 3 or state supreme court clerkship that's probably the best way to get your foot in the market. Otherwise, I'd really focus on NYC.

With all that said, if you're going to go for it then start hitting up all of your target firms in the state and network your butt off. They care a lot about fit and they like to see people who grew up there, so you never know.

SLS_AMG · Post by **SLS_AMG** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:38 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I would definitely not make your decision about the NC job market based upon LST or any other anecdotal evidence. I'm a Wake grad and most folks in my class didn't have a hard time finding employment including myself. It all depends on 1. What you want to do and 2. How well you interview.

Terrible advice

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:08 pm

SLS_AMG wrote:
Anonymous User wrote:I would definitely not make your decision about the NC job market based upon LST or any other anecdotal evidence. I'm a Wake grad and most folks in my class didn't have a hard time finding employment including myself. It all depends on 1. What you want to do and 2. How well you interview.
Terrible advice

Well, now that we're dealing in anecdotal evidence, here's mine: Ended up at Wake/UNC last year from out-of-state and finished my first semester close to the top of my class. Despite my grades and a resume with work experience, I couldn't get North Carolina firms or even many PI orgs to look at me as a serious 1L summer candidate. I performed exactly the same 2nd semester, and I'm transferring because I don't think my luck will be any better at OCIs this summer. Take that for what you will.

Plus, I'm from the Midwest and not from NY/NJ, so OP has to work against that as well. OP, don't fool yourself based on all the transplanted New Yorkers you see in Cary - Carolina firms want strong ties to the area and tend to be very hesitant to take people from out of state. Don't forget, you'll be competing against all the UNC / Wake students for the firm jobs and with Central on down for some of the less prestigious stuff. Maybe even a few Duke students in the mix, too.

OP, I'll be honest - it's going to be very tough. Don't kid yourself. I think your best bet may be to find a firm that has an office in NC and try to lateral.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:14 pm

The top firms (Robinson Bradshaw in Charlotte, Smith Anderson in Raleigh, ??? in Greensboro) are almost certainly out because of qualifications. Mid-level firms are probably also out because hiring is leaner, ties are pretty important, and it's hard to look past your resume for why you'd want to live in NC. You can stress your significant other, but it's definitely an uphill battle. Try talking to the Legal Aid office that's closest to your significant other's family, but be prepared to have to volunteer/part time to get your foot in the door. All in all, it's gonna be really tough to find anything in private practice and non-profit is gonna depend on what kind of networking you can do.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:20 pm

NC is not an easy market. I went through OCI and was 6th in my class at Wake Forest/UNC and I got one offer at a major firm. So it was a great result, but skin of my teeth. I would say that for rising 3Ls in my class about 20-25% have paying firm jobs 2L summer. The economy in NC is pretty terrible (high unemployment rate) and that's probably a significant factor.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:24 pm

rad lulz wrote:Also Go find some alums from your school and call them to see if they can help

this is good advice

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:41 am

I go to UNC.

NC's legal economy sucks! Avoid this state. The only thing good about this state is the cheap tuition at UNC.

Yes...I was able to land offers with top firms around the country (outside of the southeast). However, in NC, I couldn't even get firms to talk to me. I was born and raised here. So, I have substantial ties.

As another poster said the class sizes are extremely small...(1-5 summers). The pay is shit also...far below NYC market. Charlotte is over saturated with far too many big firms trying to carve what little piece of a pie they can. Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham doesn't have much in the way of options either. (Of course it depends on what you want).

Of course, YMMV...but I know people with far better grades than me who limited themselves to NC...what happened? they have shit jobs compared to mine because I was willing to leave. YMMV.

deadpanic · Post by **deadpanic** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 8:38 am

I know a little about it and you are going to be in a significant uphill battle. I know someone that passed the NC and patent bars, had good grades, ties to NC (but went to law school out of state) and received not even an interview--that person had to take another state bar to find work.

Top firms and "mid" firms are out as someone else said because of lack of qualifications.

Small firms will hire mostly local kids from UNC/Wake/Campbell.

DA/PD/Legal aid will hire those that have volunteered at their office for their entire law school career. You may be able to get a look at something like legal aid or PD if you have demonstrated a significant commitment to it but that is probably your best bet. Even then, these are completely dependent on funding and it's pretty doubtful with NC's legislature and governor that they will be hiring.

That's a broad picture but I don't think it's totally inaccurate. Good luck.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:10 am

deadpanic wrote:I know a little about it and you are going to be in a significant uphill battle. I know someone that passed the NC and patent bars, had good grades, ties to NC (but went to law school out of state) and received not even an interview--that person had to take another state bar to find work.

Top firms and "mid" firms are out as someone else said because of lack of qualifications.

Small firms will hire mostly local kids from UNC/Wake/Campbell.

DA/PD/Legal aid will hire those that have volunteered at their office for their entire law school career. You may be able to get a look at something like legal aid or PD if you have demonstrated a significant commitment to it but that is probably your best bet. Even then, these are completely dependent on funding and it's pretty doubtful with NC's legislature and governor that they will be hiring.

That's a broad picture but I don't think it's totally inaccurate. Good luck.

I think that is a very accurate picture.

lsatnoob · Post by **lsatnoob** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:22 am

Anonymous User wrote:I go to UNC.

NC's legal economy sucks! Avoid this state. The only thing good about this state is the cheap tuition at UNC.

Yes...I was able to land offers with top firms around the country (outside of the southeast). However, in NC, I couldn't even get firms to talk to me. I was born and raised here. So, I have substantial ties.

As another poster said the class sizes are extremely small...(1-5 summers). The pay is shit also...far below NYC market. Charlotte is over saturated with far too many big firms trying to carve what little piece of a pie they can. Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham doesn't have much in the way of options either. (Of course it depends on what you want).

Of course, YMMV...but I know people with far better grades than me who limited themselves to NC...what happened? they have shit jobs compared to mine because I was willing to leave. YMMV.

I'm an incoming 1L at unc and am curious how you went about interviewing for jobs outside of the state. OCI or was it mainly just your own networking and sending out resumes? If you'd be willing to PM me I would love to find out more from you!

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:46 am

Anonymous User wrote:I go to UNC.
...
NC's legal economy sucks!

Not sure when you graduated, but I know 2014 has had a much larger number of Duke grads who decided to stay in NC compared to previous years, too. Could have contributed to your experience as well.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:10 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I go to UNC.

NC's legal economy sucks! Avoid this state. The only thing good about this state is the cheap tuition at UNC.

Yes...I was able to land offers with top firms around the country (outside of the southeast). However, in NC, I couldn't even get firms to talk to me. I was born and raised here. So, I have substantial ties.

As another poster said the class sizes are extremely small...(1-5 summers). The pay is shit also...far below NYC market. Charlotte is over saturated with far too many big firms trying to carve what little piece of a pie they can. Raleigh/Chapel Hill/Durham doesn't have much in the way of options either. (Of course it depends on what you want).

Of course, YMMV...but I know people with far better grades than me who limited themselves to NC...what happened? they have shit jobs compared to mine because I was willing to leave. YMMV.

I'm the anon who summered in NC.

I agree with everything here, although I'm curious if you can elaborate on the pay for medium/small firms in Charlotte and Raleigh. My v100 pays 135 which, given the difference in COL between here and NYC, more or less evens out to NYC pay I think (at least for first years... the pay progression is definitely more in NYC). I've always wondered how the smaller/mid-law firms stack up.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:32 pm

Anonymous User wrote:I agree with everything here, although I'm curious if you can elaborate on the pay for medium/small firms in Charlotte and Raleigh. My v100 pays 135 which, given the difference in COL between here and NYC, more or less evens out to NYC pay I think (at least for first years... the pay progression is definitely more in NYC). I've always wondered how the smaller/mid-law firms stack up.

In Raleigh, Smith Anderson, Parker Poe, and Brooks Pierce start at $130,000. I think K&L does too, but it's a pretty small satellite office. As you get smaller the pay is less, from $90-115,000.

In Charlotte, there are a couple satellite biglaw offices paying $160,000 (Dechert, Winston & Strawn, maybe others). Robinson Bradshaw, Moore & Van Allen, etc are $130,000. Not sure about smaller in Charlotte, but I imagine it's pretty similar scale to Raleigh.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:24 pm

lsatnoob wrote: I'm an incoming 1L at unc and am curious how you went about interviewing for jobs outside of the state. OCI or was it mainly just your own networking and sending out resumes? If you'd be willing to PM me I would love to find out more from you!

Are you from NC?

If you're interested in Texas, UNC/Wake jointly participate in the Texas Interview Program, which takes place in early August of your 1L summer. The great thing is that it's all preselect, which is really nice. It takes place in Dallas, and you have to pay for your own travel. You need to have a real desire to work in Texas and top-third grades to have a good shot.

Otherwise, out-of-state opportunities are few and far between. You're going to have to do it yourself by looking for firms outside of NC and making contact - I'd start in the South if I were you and wouldn't try to venture anywhere but NYC unless you have very strong ties to a particular market. Midwest and West Coast are going to be extremely tough. I'd forget about DC, even though UNC is in the right region. Frankly, even NYC is going to be tough because so few UNC grads go there.

UNC could be a top 20 school but chronic underfunding and legislative meddling have really hurt it. The legislature imposes a 75% quota for in-state residents - unless that gets removed, there's no way for UNC to attract top candidates and become a truly national university. I'm not aware of any other state university that has to put up with that kind of bullshit. Unless there are some changes, UNC is likely to stay underrated in the near future.

A1phatraz · Post by **A1phatraz** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:30 pm

OP here, this is all great advice and I really appreciate it. I have much better ties in NYC and NJ, and would not have a problem getting a PI job here. So I have a two part question

1. Does anyone know about the buying power you have in NC as opposed to NJ/NYC? Yes I know cost of living is significantly lower, but some jobs I see like NC legal aid start at 41k, and the DA's office start at 37K

. Would 40k down there be equivalent to say 60k up here? Its kinda hard for me to work a year at a clerkship and not be able to make as much (46k) if not more than my clerkship salary.

2. Common sense to me says to just work in NJ/NYC for 4-5 years and just waive into NC and lateral into a small firm or another government job. Can I get your opinion on this strategy? Does anyone have, or know somebody that has done this?

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:43 pm

Anonymous User wrote:The legislature imposes a 75% quota for in-state residents - unless that gets removed, there's no way for UNC to attract top candidates and become a truly national university. I'm not aware of any other state university that has to put up with that kind of bullshit. Unless there are some changes, UNC is likely to stay underrated in the near future.

Pretty sure this is a myth. Source: http://www.law.unc.edu/admissions/residency/

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:58 pm

No, it's a real thing: http://www.northcarolina.edu/apps/polic ... =vs&id=450

The overall institutional quota is 18% for out-of-staters, so different constituent parts of the university may have more or fewer out-of-state students, but it looks like there are some pretty stiff financial penalties in 700.1.3(e) for exceeding the limit.

OP, back to your question on cost of living: you're probably better off with the 60k, especially if you're in NJ. In my experience, the cost of living difference between NC and high-cost areas is not enough to make up for the $20,000 in lost income.

Anonymous User · Post by **Anonymous User** » Sat Jul 12, 2014 5:29 pm

Anonymous User wrote:No, it's a real thing: http://www.northcarolina.edu/apps/polic ... =vs&id=450

The overall institutional quota is 18% for out-of-staters, so different constituent parts of the university may have more or fewer out-of-state students, but it looks like there are some pretty stiff financial penalties in 700.1.3(e) for exceeding the limit.

That applies to undergraduate enrollment. "Constituent institutions" means UNC schools (UNC, UNCG, UNCW, etc), not parts of the university. UNC's class of 2016 is 30% out-of-state.

OP, you should check out http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/cost-of-living/ to compare cost of living in the city you're in versus the cities you're interested in.

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