DOJ Honors Program 2014-15 Forum

[Anonymous User]

It's almost July 31st! Who's applying for DOJ Honors with me? I'm really freaking excited!

I'm a May 2014 graduate of a top-50 law school about to start a federal district court clerkship. Have to survive the bar first.
- Law review, moot court national champion
- I was a DOJ SLIP as a 2L and a DOJ volunteer intern as a 1L
- Former Navy fighter pilot on active duty (honorable discharge) and then Navy Reserve Intel Officer while in law school (oh, and I'm a female)

Thinking NSD, USAOs, Antitrust.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... edit#gid=0

Edited to include link to spreadsheet.

[Anonymous User]

I am also really freaking excited, but on top of that am very nervous!

May 2013 grad, T20, high honors/magna cum laude
- Law review (articles editor)
- Moot Court
- DOJ SLIP 2L summer, and volunteer intern 1L summer (and during the year, when I could manage it locally)
- heading into my second year of a two-year district court clerkship

NSD would be amazing, but I'm thinking I'll need to set my sights on components that are hiring more people. Thinking USAOs, CrimDiv, and CivDiv.

[Anonymous User]

I am also really freaking excited, but on top of that am very nervous!

May 2013 grad, T20, high honors/magna cum laude
- Law review (articles editor)
- Moot Court
- DOJ SLIP 2L summer, and volunteer intern 1L summer (and during the year, when I could manage it locally)
- heading into my second year of a two-year district court clerkship

NSD would be amazing, but I'm thinking I'll need to set my sights on components that are hiring more people. Thinking USAOs, CrimDiv, and CivDiv.

OP here. That's awesome! I don't think you should be nervous at all!

[Citizen Genet]

OP here. That's awesome! I don't think you should be nervous at all!

Not to be a jerk, but pretty much everyone should be nervous (if by nervous we mean, concerned they won't get a spot). DOJ Honors is tough for everyone.

That being said, you're right that anon has a great resume. Great academic achievement, lots of academic interest, federal district court clerkship. You've hit all the right buttons. Write a good statement of interest and if you have contacts at any of the divisions you worked at, get in touch to see if they have any recommendations on how to approach it. (More than anything, this is a way to let them know you're applying and hopefully they can make a back-end recommendation.)

EDIT: Removed part of a quote because OP may want to edit later.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. That's awesome! I don't think you should be nervous at all!

Not to be a jerk, but pretty much everyone should be nervous (if by nervous we mean, concerned they won't get a spot). DOJ Honors is tough for everyone.

That being said, you're right that anon has a great resume. Great academic achievement, lots of academic interest, federal district court clerkship. You've hit all the right buttons. Write a good statement of interest and if you have contacts at any of the divisions you worked at, get in touch to see if they have any recommendations on how to approach it. (More than anything, this is a way to let them know you're applying and hopefully they can make a back-end recommendation.)

I appreciate the vote of confidence, OP! Based purely on resume alone, I like your chances, too. As much as I can like anyone's, really.

And yeah, CG, that's what my nerves are coming from. DOJ Honors is kind of a dream gig, and even with the increased numbers they're looking to hire this year, in total the number still is nowhere near the number of people I'm sure will be applying.

[Edit deleting possibly identifying information] The only thing I'm stuck on is basically whether to pick my SLIP component (hiring fewer people) as one of my three, even though they're taking a much smaller number of people, or picking CivDiv, which has a lot of applicants but also is looking at hiring 29 people.

[Anonymous User]

Just to clarify, this is to start in fall 2015, right?

[Anonymous User]

Just to clarify, this is to start in fall 2015, right?

Yes.

[Anonymous User]

Ok. Good luck to everyone. I'll be applying for the next round, then. I'll definitely follow this topic though.

[Anonymous User]

To the anon who wondered about including your SLIP component: if you'd be willing to go back there, I would definitely put the SLIP component as one of the components. I went through this 2 years ago, and I had one interview that I'm sure I got through connections (a former clerk of the judge I clerked for knew people in the component and put in a good word for me). Government hiring can be very odd and it can be very formulaic, but from everything I've heard, DOJ is kind of a "black box" employer (like YS have "black box" admissions), so I think working connections is important. And I think having worked for that component and knowing people there will trump any bias toward lit on your resume, especially since you say you also have less/non-lit experience. Basically, one of the advantages of doing SLIP is that it gives you an in with a component, so I would absolutely not waste that. And your SLIP contacts may not have any contacts with other components, whereas they definitely have pull within the SLIP component.

FWIW, I have also heard that Crim doesn't interview people who don't list it as their top component (I can't confirm this from anyone hiring in Crim, but it's what I've heard), but I know at least some of the USAOs don't have that concern. I also think Civil gets a really high number of applicants.

[UndecidedMN]

Has anyone had experience with DOJ Tax Crim or Civ Section?

[objctnyrhnr]

On the website, there are specific USAO's and specific components. If one applies just for a component (one of the categories at the top of the list), are those jobs always in DC, or do they just send you to a random office?

[Anonymous User]

On the website, there are specific USAO's and specific components. If one applies just for a component (one of the categories at the top of the list), are those jobs always in DC, or do they just send you to a random office?

If I recall correctly from when I applied for Summer 2013 SLIP, you ranked/applied to each individual USAO and the office will choose whether or not to interview you.

That year, D. Wyoming and M.D. Pennsylvania were the only participating USAOs in SLIP. I applied to both of them and had separate interviews and offers from them.

When I applied to the Antitrust Division, I didn't choose which section/office within the Division until I had already accepted my SLIP offer and sent in my employment forms.

I hope this helps.

[Anonymous User]

You can only rank three components, right? So no other component gets to see your application? I'm really interested in four components, but I'm not sure how to rank them yet.

[Anonymous User]

Haven't been able to find a lot of info about this but generally speaking

1) How competitive is DOJ Honors? How competitive in regard to national security related components (I see they hire very few numbers)?

2) How does DOJ treat biglaw work? My resume (in law school) has only biglaw work (no clinics or public interest stuff) though pre-law school I had a lot of public interest including USAO. Additionally, my resume has a lot of experience related to national security stuff.

Stats: HYS, above median, probably around top 1/3 of class. I also have COA clerkship after graduation for non-feeder in non-2/9/DC circuit.

OP here-cross posted with the other govt honors thread

[A. Nony Mouse]

You can only rank three components, right? So no other component gets to see your application? I'm really interested in four components, but I'm not sure how to rank them yet.

Yup, this is right.

[Anonymous User]

Haven't been able to find a lot of info about this but generally speaking

1) How competitive is DOJ Honors? How competitive in regard to national security related components (I see they hire very few numbers)?

2) How does DOJ treat biglaw work? My resume (in law school) has only biglaw work (no clinics or public interest stuff) though pre-law school I had a lot of public interest including USAO. Additionally, my resume has a lot of experience related to national security stuff.

Stats: HYS, above median, probably around top 1/3 of class. I also have COA clerkship after graduation for non-feeder in non-2/9/DC circuit.

OP here-cross posted with the other govt honors thread

1) I spoke fairly directly with someone who assists in hiring for NSD (we had an attorney-friend in common). It's very competitive. You have to rank them first, which may mean passing on components that are hiring more people. There's something like two to four spots a year, and they typically take only from the best schools. Good news for you is that HYS will help you there. I don't know precisely what your NatSec experience is, but obviously that will be key in differentiating you from the other HYSCCN people applying. Being a vet helps too, if that's relevant to your situation. Your clerkship will also help.

2) I don't know about NSD specifically in terms of how they view biglaw. I can say that, in general, DOJ cares about your dedication to public sector work. They want the best and all that, but they also don't want someone who is going to swing by for a couple of years to get substantive experience and then leap to biglaw. They want people who care about the mission of the section/department, and it's easier to show that if you have it all over your resume. That said, you can definitely try and spin it/craft your answers carefully on the application to show dedication that might not be obvious based on resume alone.

[Anonymous User]

Haven't been able to find a lot of info about this but generally speaking

1) How competitive is DOJ Honors? How competitive in regard to national security related components (I see they hire very few numbers)?

2) How does DOJ treat biglaw work? My resume (in law school) has only biglaw work (no clinics or public interest stuff) though pre-law school I had a lot of public interest including USAO. Additionally, my resume has a lot of experience related to national security stuff.

Stats: HYS, above median, probably around top 1/3 of class. I also have COA clerkship after graduation for non-feeder in non-2/9/DC circuit.

OP here-cross posted with the other govt honors thread

1) I spoke fairly directly with someone who assists in hiring for NSD (we had an attorney-friend in common). It's very competitive. You have to rank them first, which may mean passing on components that are hiring more people. There's something like two to four spots a year, and they typically take only from the best schools. Good news for you is that HYS will help you there. I don't know precisely what your NatSec experience is, but obviously that will be key in differentiating you from the other HYSCCN people applying. Being a vet helps too, if that's relevant to your situation. Your clerkship will also help.

2) I don't know about NSD specifically in terms of how they view biglaw. I can say that, in general, DOJ cares about your dedication to public sector work. They want the best and all that, but they also don't want someone who is going to swing by for a couple of years to get substantive experience and then leap to biglaw. They want people who care about the mission of the section/department, and it's easier to show that if you have it all over your resume. That said, you can definitely try and spin it/craft your answers carefully on the application to show dedication that might not be obvious based on resume alone.

OP here, looks like you have info, would you mind if I pm'ed you for more info?

[Anonymous User]

OP here, looks like you have info, would you mind if I pm'ed you for more info?

I'm the anon you quoted. It's not that I don't want to help or give you more info, but for you to pm me would kind of require me...not being anonymous. And nothing super-sensitive about my personal information is out there, but revealing who I am could reveal the attorneys I talked to to people who know a bit about me, and I'm not all that comfortable with that.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, looks like you have info, would you mind if I pm'ed you for more info?

I'm the anon you quoted. It's not that I don't want to help or give you more info, but for you to pm me would kind of require me...not being anonymous. And nothing super-sensitive about my personal information is out there, but revealing who I am could reveal the attorneys I talked to to people who know a bit about me, and I'm not all that comfortable with that.

OK. I'm the OP who asked to PM you. In that case I'll just ask the questions here then.

Generally, speaking then, would bidding on a bigger department, like civil or something, increase my chances? My thinking is that DOJ NSD is a narrow focus so although they recruit less, less should bid on them.

[Anonymous User]

I'm probably applying.

2014 graduate with honors from a T6. Law review exec board, starting a circuit clerkship this fall, two summers in biglaw, one at a nonprofit. I'm concerned that my lack of government service (and the fact that all of my work has been adverse to the government) will work against me. But I think that, if given the chance, I could articulate a good reason why I'm applying.

Questions:
-Does anyone know what the Bureau of Prisons lawyers do?
-Should your references be professors or people from your legal jobs? I think there are a couple people from my firm who would be enthusiastic references, but obviously I don't want to start advertising too broadly that I'm looking at government work.

[Anonymous User]

.

[Anonymous User]

I've met a couple of BOP lawyers, and they work in the prisons, on prisoner issues (things like assaults and contraband, as well as prisoner rights). But I don't know if either of them got the job through Honors or whether the Honors people work in individual prisons or do more general counsel sort of stuff. (At least one of them carries a gun and meets the same physically requirements as the corrections officers - he was a former marine and built like a tank - but I don't know whether all jobs require that.)

[Anonymous User]

I was a BOP SLIP, and what a BOP lawyer does really depends on where they are. In DC, they're divied up by legal subject-matter: employment law, administration (prisoner appeals of disciplinary action, etc.), litigation (assisting the USAOs, etc.), real estate law, government contracts, etc. In the CLCs and the prisons, they do administration, employment, and litigation (the other stuff usually gets referred to HQ). Every BOP lawyer is technically a LEO. That said, I think only the ones in actual prison facilities get LEO pay/retirement.

[Anonymous User]

I'm probably going to send in an application as well. I haven't really looked into it yet, but the 3 components i'm most interested in are: (1) civil appellate; (2) U.S. Attorney Office; (3) National Security Division. I'm not sure how to rank them though.

Are people ITT also applying for the Bristow Fellowship?

I'm interested in general information, to the extent it is possible to generalize, on which components are the most selective and least selective, and which components must be ranked 1st to get an interview with them. Thanks in advance!

[Anonymous User]

OP here, looks like you have info, would you mind if I pm'ed you for more info?

I'm the anon you quoted. It's not that I don't want to help or give you more info, but for you to pm me would kind of require me...not being anonymous. And nothing super-sensitive about my personal information is out there, but revealing who I am could reveal the attorneys I talked to to people who know a bit about me, and I'm not all that comfortable with that.

OK. I'm the OP who asked to PM you. In that case I'll just ask the questions here then.

Generally, speaking then, would bidding on a bigger department, like civil or something, increase my chances? My thinking is that DOJ NSD is a narrow focus so although they recruit less, less should bid on them.

I think this is a tough question to answer, because you've hit the nail on the head. (Actually, it's a question I'm trying to answer myself, as someone also applying this cycle.) It's true that NSD won't get applications from certain people who aren't interested, or even dislike, the subject-matter. Civil has such a broader reach that more people apply there. On the flip-side, NSD's 3 is pretty small as compared to CivDiv's 29. Depending on how you feel about the other Honors components, you could also rank both. A friend who used to hire for CivDiv indicated that they didn't auto-trash anyone who didn't rank them first (through ranking them third was dicey).