Selfish pro bono Forum

[Anonymous User]

I've been talking about pro bono with a number of (biglaw) attorneys and they've all talked about it as something they do to improve their skills/get early experience/have something fun to do that counts for billables. What they basically never say is "I do pro bono to help people."

Have I just been talking to weird people, or is that how it is? And does it vary by market?

EDIT: I want to clarify that I don't have anything against people doing pro bono for "selfish" reasons—or not doing pro bono at all. It's a tough world out there and you have no obligation to go out of your way to help someone else. And, besides, I wouldn't be working for a for-profit company if I didn't think great things can come from people all working for their own ends. I'm just curious what motivates those who do choose to do pro bono.

EDIT 2: Fixed poll, sorry.

[ph14]

I've been talking about pro bono with a number of (biglaw) attorneys and they've all talked about it as something they do to improve their skills/get early experience/have something fun to do that counts for billables. What they basically never say is "I do pro bono to help people."

Have I just been talking to weird people, or is that how it is? And does it vary by market?

This might shock you, but people do it both because it helps people and because it gives them a chance to develop their legal skills.

[ymmv]

It varies by firm and by person. Poll is useless tbh.

[ymmv]

I've been talking about pro bono with a number of (biglaw) attorneys and they've all talked about it as something they do to improve their skills/get early experience/have something fun to do that counts for billables. What they basically never say is "I do pro bono to help people."

Have I just been talking to weird people, or is that how it is? And does it vary by market?

This might shock you, but people do it both because it helps people and because it gives them a chance to develop their legal skills.

Also this.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Life as an associate makes you feel the need to justify the utility of how you spend every hour. "Helping people" is a little nebulous as a justification. "Developing my skills" is more concrete value.

I also think that there is an extent to which biglaw associates want to avoid expressing too much interest in pro bono work for its own sake because it is an uneasy topic. A lot of firms really do want people to do pro bono work, but at the end of the day there's no avoiding the fact that you're costing the firm money by doing it. Also, while everyone wants to be a good citizen, ethical practitioner, etc., they don't want to be known as a bleeding heart.

[A. Nony Mouse]

You have to keep in mind that biglaw associates may never get to court except on pro bono matters. One of my colleagues left his firm after 5 years because never went to court, once, during that time. Since a lot of people in litigation want to be able to move out of biglaw to other jobs, pro bono becomes important. It doesn't mean someone doesn't *want* to help people just because they have other more self-serving motives.

Also, some people want to leave biglaw so they can go to jobs that "help people," but which don't hire entry-level attorneys. And some people who really want to help people (in the way that pro bono usually encompasses) wouldn't go to biglaw to begin with.

[Danger Zone]

Is there any reason that this self righteous cunt should enjoy the benefit of anon?

[lmr]

It's big law. They aren't pursuing a career in public service-I don't get your confusion and arrogance. If you really give a shit about using your legal education to help people then go pursue a career in PI instead of bagging on others.

[Anonymous User]

self righteous

If you really give a shit about using your legal education to help people then go pursue a career in PI instead of bagging on others.

I didn't mean to criticize anyone. It's totally legit to do pro bono just to build skills—or to not do it at all. Doing something just to "help people" is always going above and beyond, and I've got zero problem with people who don't. Just curious what people's motives tend to be. Thanks for the replies, though.

EDIT: I think the thread title came off as judgy-er than I meant it to. I'll just say that, as a former/recovering econ major, I don't have any problem with selfishness and didn't intend a criticism. I'll edit the OP to make that clear.

[DELG]

I do pro bono work because a partner asked me to.

I help people by writing checks.

[09042014]

Do a pro bono case or two. You'll realize poor people mostly deserve the bad shit that happens to them.

[Holly Golightly]

I got really upset/really fucking pissed off when someone at my summer firm said pro bono gets you great experience because "it doesn't really matter." That person did a bunch of pro bono asylum cases.

Yeah, it's just someone's life, not anything important like money, so that doesn't fucking matter.


Just thinking about that convo still makes me want to punch babies.

[09042014]

I got really upset/really fucking pissed off when someone at my summer firm said pro bono gets you great experience because "it doesn't really matter." That person did a bunch of pro bono asylum cases.

Yeah, it's just someone's life, not anything important like money, so that doesn't fucking matter.


Just thinking about that convo still makes me want to punch babies.

tbf, like 80% of those asylum cases are make believe.

[JusticeJackson]

.

[Holly Golightly]

And after clerking for a court that sees a variety of work from tiny and huge firms alike, I can tell you that the "big firms are the best litigators" shtick is a total flame.

And thinking that someone who knows nothing about immigration law and halfasses a case he doesn't care about would be "far superior to . . . the run of the mill immigration attorney" is arrogant bullshit.

[dresden doll]

1000 percent with HGL here.

[DELG]

I'm not a clerk but I would expect someone who has reviewed "tons" of immigration cases as a clerk is probably set up to do some decent quality pro bono even if half assing it

[CicerBRo]

Everything is selfish. Even someone acting in an ostensibly selfless manner is doing so because, to some extent, they want to. Which seems to make them selfish?

But seriously, who cares whether or not pro bono is done for selfish reasons. The important thing is that it is helping people. Many lawyers do pro bono out of a genuine desire to help people, but they also do it for other reasons; it might be more fun than their usual practice area, they want to learn, they want to get paid for something that might not be as stressful (though this is often not the case), and so on.

The poll is useless because every attorney has different reasons. But judging lawyers who are giving you their honest opinion as to why they are doing pro bono is shortsighted; they are just giving you a genuine response. Be grateful for that. If you are selfless when you do pro bono, good for you; that doesn't mean everyone else has the same motivations.

[CicerBRo]

And after clerking for a court that sees a variety of work from tiny and huge firms alike, I can tell you that the "big firms are the best litigators" shtick is a total flame.

And thinking that someone who knows nothing about immigration law and halfasses a case he doesn't care about would be "far superior to . . . the run of the mill immigration attorney" is arrogant bullshit.

TITCR.

[Holly Golightly]

I don't care what a person's reasons are for doing pro bono as long as they do it to the best of their ability. But people half-assing cases that can ruin people's lives is fucking bullshit.

[DELG]

It's not like getting paid stops people from half assing it though, or at least that's what I have heard about immigration attorneys generally.

[dresden doll]

It depends. Everyone at my old job was really top notch but I hear awful things about many small-time for-profit lawyers who handle those cases.

[ymmv]

It's not like getting paid stops people from half assing it though, or at least that's what I have heard about immigration attorneys generally.

100% the case. The most atrocious POS briefs I have ever read came from immigration, SSI, and disability attorneys working on a flat fee basis. Truly egregious garbage I hope and believe no self respecting student or attorney would've turned in for pro bono clients.

[CicerBRo]

Yeah, a lot of attorneys half ass and are paid for it, and it sucks. We aren't operating in a bubble; what we do affects real people. Whenever I see any lawyer putting in less than 100 % effort on a case that affects a real person who has put his or her trust in that attorney (basically, all cases), I think of how that attorney would feel if his surgeon put in a 50 % effort--"half assing" it. I don't meant to come off as pretentious, but if someone doesn't want to put their all into their chosen profession--especially when that profession deals with things that could completely screw over another person, even in the most routine cases--they need to reevaluate whether they really want to be an attorney.

[Danger Zone]

Also what is this massive flame about people in small markets always doing it FOR THE RIGHT REASONS