NYC v10 or a firm in a small market? Forum

[Anonymous User]

tl;dr Why work in NY for the exit opportunities when I could start at the sort of place I'd like to end up?

Here's the situation: I'm splitting the summer between a V10 in NYC and the ~200 lawyer firm in a small market that I was at last year. If I get offers from both (which I know isn't a guarantee), I'll have to decide where to go. Either way, I'll want to do lit.

Arguments for the V10 (many of which are some form of "preftige"): more money (eventually---starting salaries aren't that different once you adjust for CoL/taxes, but the small market pay stays pretty flat until you hit partner). Higher stakes/bet-the-company cases. More "sophisticated" cases (whatever that means). Better formal training. The V10's networking. Better exit opps (especially more geographic flexibility---few people have heard of Small Market Firm outside of the state/region).

Arguments for Small Market Firm: it's in the city/state I'd like to end up (I have family there and like the region). I don't like NYC/cities (I'm more of a "boardgames night in the suburbs" person, not a "out at a loud bar" person). Leaner staffing/earlier substantive experience. Significantly better partnership odds (leverage is about 1:1 and very few associates are asked to leave). Low cost of living. Hours are some better, though billiables are still around 2,000. Might have same/better exit opps into local jobs.

Bottom line: I think I'd be happier in the small market firm and don't think the extra flexibility I'd get from the V10 would be worth it, especially since I might not ever use it. So, what do you think? What did I miss? What am I wrong/dumb about?

[Jwood]

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[JusticeJackson]

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[09042014]

lol at formal training

[Anonymous User]

Are you 100% sure you want to be in the smaller market for your entire career? I was, and I took the job in the smaller city. Three years in, I regret it.

I'm about as sure as I can be as a 3L . . . but I guess you were too. Certainty is hard to come by. Do you mind if I ask what changed your mind? Was something not as you expected?

[FSK]

In re exit ops: Seems like you aren't likely to need them from the small firm, so that isn't a disadvantage. To the V10, what kind of Ops would you want? If you have a burning desire to be GC or something with a F500, then go do that. If not, then there's much less advantage.

Also, in re cities: some of the best board game cultures are in cities. The board-game community in NY is huge.

[Lacepiece23]

Take the small firm and never look back. I also never bought the whole you can't move unless you start from NYC thing. First, how many people really try. Second, how many people with V10 resumes choose your city or something similar. Third, I'm pretty sure that a big NYC firm would be interested in someone with a great resume who they would have offered as a first year, but now has substantive experience beyond his years as a litigator. Of course this is all sepculation.

[Law Sauce]

I would take the NYC firm. Just for a couple of years (or a single year). It will be great on your resume your whole career and you open up of some doors you may eventually decide that you want, you don't know where your career is going yet, but you have a pretty good idea if you go to the local firm (you could always go back to that second firm after the v10, they would take you back if you wanted, the v10 will not take you back if you go there).

See how you like the summers at each, no need to decide right now

[JusticeJackson]

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[PredatoryWasp]

I've read many articles/blogs written by small market attorneys who have all pretty much recommended starting out at one of the large firms in a large market, if you have the good luck to do so, prior to moving down simply on the grounds that they felt it made them better attorneys, more capable of excelling at their positions afterward. This was mostly because large firms in large markets tend to have a greater variety of substantive work that lets you get your hands dirty quickly (even if your client contact is limited) and they provide associates with more comprehensive, formalized training programs.

But, it sounds like you already know what you want to do and I doubt you will have problems either way.

[PredatoryWasp]

There were also many negatives that these articles/blogs noted though - like you run the risk of getting pigeon-holed and forced to overly specialize in one particular area, burn out, you become overly dependent on the perks (paralegals, research assistants, well-funded graphics/computer imaging teams, and so on), etc.

Forgot to mention those.

[Anonymous User]

large firms in large markets tend to have a greater variety of substantive work that lets you get your hands dirty quickly (even if your client contact is limited)

Could you elaborate on that any? My understanding is that substantive work is somewhat scarce for a junior at a big/highly leveraged firm. If I'm wrong about that, that'd be really good to know.

[dixiecupdrinking]

I'm a first year at an NYC firm and I can't imagine why this would be preferable for someone who doesn't want to live in NYC.

[TooOld4This]

Are you 100% sure you want to be in the smaller market for your entire career? I was, and I took the job in the smaller city. Three years in, I regret it.

I'm about as sure as I can be as a 3L . . . but I guess you were too. Certainty is hard to come by. Do you mind if I ask what changed your mind? Was something not as you expected?

Honestly, just the general grind that has every 3rd or 4th year litigator I know in the dumps. Tons of work, a couple tough upcoming trials where we're on the short side of the facts, and not enough people to help because we're a "lean firm, where associates get early experience!!!" I could very easily be just as jaded in any other city with any other job. The way I look at it, if I went to the v10, at least I would be able to lateral to somewhere else that is theoretically awesome.

What do you think these magical exit options are? Most V10 3rd or 4th years are probably looking at your job thinking that it is theoretically awesome.

[Anonymous User]

lol at formal training

they provide associates with more comprehensive, formalized training programs.

I've heard both of these a lot. Which is credited?

[DELG]

TLS consensus: no matter what you choose, you'll regret it.

[09042014]

TLS consensus: no matter what you choose, you'll regret it.

tbf, being a lawyer just sucks. So TLS is correct.

[Lexaholik]

Assuming you're litigation (you said cases) I would say the following: the more uncertain you feel about your future (geographic location, practice area, whether you want to practice law) the better your decision to go V10 will be.

Remember, that's distinct from the vanilla "go to V10 and you can always go to the small market later" advice you see repeated ad nauseum. It's really not an easy choice. (me: former NYC V10, current associate at smaller firm in smaller city) There's a real cost to going to V10; it's not as if you just show up, collect a fat paycheck while balling hard in NYC for a few years. The "bet the company" cases are full of bureaucratic BS, doc review, and other nightmares. You will grow miserable, fat, and ugly. You will learn very little about actually litigating.

So there are pros (exit options are out there, money, prestige) to going to Simpson/Cleary or whatever but there are very real cons. Talk to actual associates at these firms they will back up what I'm saying. And only go if you are willing to deal with all that BS to retain flexibility and stash some cash. Because if you choose the V10 path, there will be many late nights where you might be kicking yourself for making that choice.

[Florence Night]

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[Lacepiece23]

For what it's worth (maybe not much), I know of at least some people from the biggest few firms in my home city (big but non-vault firms, secondary market) who have wanted to switch to nyc vault-whatever firms and done it.

I'm not sure it is the one way street people think it is. Experienced mid-levels are highly profitable.

Exactly what I said.

[smallfirmassociate]

(you could always go back to that second firm after the v10, they would take you back if you wanted

This isn't necessarily true. My firm generally does not like biglaw transfers for a number of legitimate reasons. We only have one right now, and she had to come in as an associate and work on the same track for partner as everyone else out of law school.

TS, if you want to be at the small firm, go there. It's a remarkably simple statement, but really, what else is there to it? You're never guaranteed anything in life, but if you think that's what you want, go for it and don't look back.

[20160810]

This seems like a case where you are letting the vault ranking concept have a little too much power. If you don't want to live in New York, why not take a job in the place where you do want to live? If it's a 200 person firm I'm sure it's pretty good and you won't be fucked for exit options if you want to leave, but maybe you won't even leave.

[09042014]

200 people isn't a small firm.

[Anonymous User]

I would take the NYC firm. Just for a couple of years (or a single year). It will be great on your resume your whole career and you open up of some doors you may eventually decide that you want.

I've heard this a lot. But if I already have the 2L SA on my resume and first-years don't learn much, what's the resume boost from staying for a single year? Is it just proving that I didn't get no-offered (from a typically 100% firm)? Is it proving that I don't mind working hard? (But jumping ship after a year doesn't really seem to prove that.) Am I missing something?

Or is the "it'll be great forever" argument oversold when you already have the SA/offer?

And, on a related note, if I were to get a federal district court clerkship, would that serve much the same function?

[Anonymous User]

As a 1L SA at a v50 in a secondary market currently, would like to add to add my perspective here FWIW.

On the pro-small market firm side, my partner mentor at the office actually came from an NYC V5 firm out of a MVP school, and worked there for 3 years before coming to this secondary market. On the one hand, you could say that since he is one of the more successful partners in the office, you could perhaps say the V5 and school pedigree helped him ascend the ranks, but when I asked him about it he told me that he doesn't think it mattered, and in fact maybe even delayed him a bit since he had to establish himself in the secondary market. I'm a little skeptical because working with the best and brightest must have at least transferred some skills into the toolbox, but he said it really wasn't necessary. His logic was that if you already have the sort of pedigree to get into a V10, if your goal is a secondary market then there's really only so much more resume padding you need to do - if you're v10 quality, you can walk into many secondary markets such as mine and already be ahead of the pack so what's the point of padding yourself even more? That was his perspective.

On the con-small market side, make sure you figure out what the progression and opportunities are like at your firm and if they're in line with where you want to be in 5-10 years. I spoke with an associate there, and was really disappointed with the salary and bonus progression at the firm (and this is a v50 mind you). Even at an entry level income parter position, if you make it up there, you're not cracking 200-225k initially. And he said the chances of making it to equity partner are extremely low AFTER you make it to income partner. Low cost of living or not, that salary progression (only about 5k each year, and tough to make the hours to get a bonus in a secondary market) was a bit disappointing to me. Furthermore, as other posters have mentioned, it is definitely extremely difficult to make a shift up the vault list or out of this secondary market if you decide you want to "ramp it up" in the future.

Now, that's not to say the money is peanuts or that you won't be able to provide for a solid family lifestyle at that money rate, but your mileage will vary depending on what your goals are.