Are we at-will employed? annually? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Just curious what happens after you start working at a law firm (especially big law).
So when you get there the first day or so, you sign a standard contract? (can you negotiate the terms)?
Do you have to worry about getting fired in the 2nd year without cause or the firm not wanting to extend your employment?
How long is the employment term anyway?

[Anonymous User]

You're most likely employed at will.

[Tanicius]

Most certainly employed at-will, but you should definitely review your entire employment contract (for a bunch of other reasons).

[Anonymous User]

OP here.
So you sign a new contract every year?
When do you sign the first one?

[Anonymous User]

So you sign a new contract every year?

That's not what employment at will means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment.

[Tanicius]

So you sign a new contract every year?

Doubt it. At-will lasts as long as either party chooses until one of you opts out. There may be a term though -- just check.

[Nelson]

Are there any private sector professional jobs that aren't at will?

[Anonymous User]

So you sign a new contract every year?

That's not what employment at will means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment.

Oh so I guess we don't even have an employment contract at all??

[Anonymous User]

So you sign a new contract every year?

That's not what employment at will means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment.

Oh so I guess we don't even have an employment contract at all??

You might still have an employment contract. Just read the wikipedia page. You aren't getting the idea of employment at will at all.

[Anonymous User]

So you sign a new contract every year?

Doubt it. At-will lasts as long as either party chooses until one of you opts out. There may be a term though -- just check.

So there is no standard term or practice for BigLaw?
Can you individually negotiate the terms?

[Nelson]

So you sign a new contract every year?

Doubt it. At-will lasts as long as either party chooses until one of you opts out. There may be a term though -- just check.

So there is no standard term or practice for BigLaw?
Can you individually negotiate the terms?

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

[Tanicius]

Are there any private sector professional jobs that aren't at will?

Partnerships. Tons of contractual type jobs, like consulting for another company as your own boss. Special counsel are probably also often contracted instead of at-will, because they're an important player and the firm wants to retain their expertise with non-compete clauses and stuff.

Dewey was actually brought down by a lot of shoddy partnership contracts. The guys who ran the firm were giving out multi-million dollar contracts as signing bonuses for hotshot rainmakers, and most of those rainmakers still haven't received most of the money they were promised for coming to Dewey and are still suing the firm and the executives in bankruptcy court today.

[Anonymous User]

So you sign a new contract every year?

Doubt it. At-will lasts as long as either party chooses until one of you opts out. There may be a term though -- just check.

So there is no standard term or practice for BigLaw?
Can you individually negotiate the terms?

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

You might be able to negotiate your employment contract if you are a true superstar. For the median biglaw lawyer, though, it's not realistic.

[Tanicius]

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

I'm not in BigLaw, but I have several friends that negotiated tens of thousands of extra dollars in bonuses/salary at their firm when they got the formal offer. I have other friends who found out you could do this after it was too late and they spent their bar summer kicking themselves for being so hasty to sign on the dotted line.

[Nelson]

Are there any private sector professional jobs that aren't at will?

Partnerships. Tons of contractual type jobs, like consulting for another company as your own boss. Special counsel are probably also often contracted instead of at-will, because they're an important player and the firm wants to retain their expertise with non-compete clauses and stuff.

Dewey was actually brought down by a lot of shoddy partnership contracts. The guys who ran the firm were giving out multi-million dollar contracts as signing bonuses for hotshot rainmakers, and most of those rainmakers still haven't received most of the money they were promised for coming to Dewey and are still suing the firm and the executives in bankruptcy court today.

I should have added salaried. A noncompete does not mean you are not at will. Loads of at will employees are bound by noncompete clauses.

[Nelson]

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

I'm not in BigLaw, but I have several friends that negotiated tens of thousands of extra dollars in bonuses/salary at their firm when they got the formal offer. I have other friends who found out you could do this after it was too late and they spent their bar summer kicking themselves for being so hasty to sign on the dotted line.

This is not going to happen in major market biglaw associate hiring when you salary is lockstep.

[Tanicius]

I should have added salaried. A noncompete does not mean you are not at will. Loads of at will employees are bound by noncompete clauses.

The line between at-will and "contractual" is blurred, in part because both are technically contracts. But generally speaking, the more bargaining power a professional has, the more common it is to see people of their circumstances employed by contracts rather than employed subject to at-will termination. If you're giving money consideration to a firm to work there, then you'd be ill-advised to accept an at-will employment term.

[Negotiating] is not going to happen in major market biglaw associate hiring when you salary is lockstep.

Boies Schiller in SF/Oakland, and Fenwick in SV are the two firms I know of for a fact. Perhaps most of the negotiating tends to concern bonuses rather than salary.

[Anonymous User]

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

I'm not in BigLaw, but I have several friends that negotiated tens of thousands of extra dollars in bonuses/salary at their firm when they got the formal offer. I have other friends who found out you could do this after it was too late and they spent their bar summer kicking themselves for being so hasty to sign on the dotted line.

Wait really? people already signed the formal contract? or are you referring to the offer?

[Tanicius]

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

I'm not in BigLaw, but I have several friends that negotiated tens of thousands of extra dollars in bonuses/salary at their firm when they got the formal offer. I have other friends who found out you could do this after it was too late and they spent their bar summer kicking themselves for being so hasty to sign on the dotted line.

Wait really? people already signed the formal contract? or are you referring to the offer?

Formal offer, post-summer.

[Anonymous User]

You might be able to negotiate your employment contract if you are a true superstar. For the median biglaw lawyer, though, it's not realistic.

So I guess an incoming junior associate can't negotiate a term of employment (not money but time period of employment I meant).

[Nelson]

To the OP's original point, no firm is going to give up the ability to fire associates at will. It's the whole point of having them around.

[Anonymous User]

Just lol at the idea of negotiating an employment contract. Do you negotiate your credit card agreements too?

I'm not in BigLaw, but I have several friends that negotiated tens of thousands of extra dollars in bonuses/salary at their firm when they got the formal offer. I have other friends who found out you could do this after it was too late and they spent their bar summer kicking themselves for being so hasty to sign on the dotted line.

Wait really? people already signed the formal contract? or are you referring to the offer?

Oh I see. Do you know when we sign the formal contract? I guess the first day?

[Anonymous User]

You might be able to negotiate your employment contract if you are a true superstar. For the median biglaw lawyer, though, it's not realistic.

So I guess an incoming junior associate can't negotiate a term of employment (not money but time period of employment I meant).

Highly doubtful. Perhaps if you were president of the Harvard Law Review you might have a shot. For the median new associate, unlikely.

[Tanicius]

Formal offer, post-summer.

Oh I see. Do you know when we sign the formal contract? I guess the first day?

Usually before. Depends on the firm, obviously. Some give it to you far in advance, others over the spring of 3L, others over the summer post-grad, others while you're there at the office later.

[Anonymous User]

Formal offer, post-summer.

Oh I see. Do you know when we sign the formal contract? I guess the first day?

Usually before. Depends on the firm, obviously. Some give it to you far in advance, others over the spring of 3L, others over the summer post-grad, others while you're there at the office later.

Oh okay. So I guess my firm does not sign one until we get to the office later... since we didn't go anything after we returned one page signed acceptance for the formal offer last year post-summer.

Do you know if that's the case, whether one signs the contract individually or as a group (everyone in a room together and each signing their's)?
Also do we get some time to read the terms and think about it at all? or just sign it on the spot immediately?