Below Median (3.2) at Duke: 2L Strategy Forum

[Anonymous User]

Brought my GPA up into the 3.2 range (3.3 is median) after a strong 2nd semester. When should I start mass mailing? What should my strategy be if my 1st choice is LA and 2nd choice is NYC?

Thanks for the help!

[Anonymous User]

OP here, no takers? Someone from the lower T-14 has to have something to say, right?

[northwood]

id start mass mailing in mid- july at the earliest. Target firms that wont be at OCI

[jbagelboy]

I would imagine that splitting bids in your circumstances with california markets would be a recipe for strike out and a poor choice. Less grade sensitive NYC firms throughout NLJ350/V100 should be your targets. I agree with massmail advice. But I'm not at duke so I can't say for sure.

[rad lulz]

Bid NYC firms w big classes and that are un selective

Mass mail everywhere

GL hf

[DELG]

Start getting firms together for your massmail campaign. You don't have the grades to only look in LA and NYC. Start trying to get time with alums. Do whatever you can to get a better pitch.

[Anonymous User]

OP here, so what cities other than LA and NYC are less grade sensitive? Everything I've heard is that NYC is the easiest market to get due to the sheer number of SA's

[Anonymous User]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

[AllDangle]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

Would you mind PM'ing me regarding percentile cutoffs at Duke? Rising 2L curious as to where I stand percentile wise.

[jbagelboy]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

if 3.3 is median, it seems nearly impossible for 3.2 to be bottom 20%, and unlikely that OP is deep into the bottom third. They are probably sitting somewhere in the third quartile, not very comfortable but not at the very bottom of the class as you suggest.

[Anonymous User]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

Bidding NYC is good advice for someone at or only slightly above median, but not great for someone with as low of grades as OP.

[DELG]

OP here, so what cities other than LA and NYC are less grade sensitive? Everything I've heard is that NYC is the easiest market to get due to the sheer number of SA's

Nah it's not so much that smaller markets are necessarily less grade sensitive as that you need to get in front of more firms.

[Anonymous User]

Bid NYC firms w big classes and that are un selective

Mass mail everywhere

GL hf

Is there a list of such firms anywhere?

[rad lulz]

Bid NYC firms w big classes and that are un selective

Mass mail everywhere

GL hf

Is there a list of such firms anywhere?

Ask your cso

[DELG]

Bid NYC firms w big classes and that are un selective

Mass mail everywhere

GL hf

Is there a list of such firms anywhere?

Ask your cso

Do they do that? NU's party line was massmailing is a waste of time

[rad lulz]

.

[Anonymous User]

Also go to Duke with a 3.4+ GPA after my 1L year (also due to bad 1st semester grades). I agree with the above posters and my strategy at OCI was also bidding safe: never put the super selective firms (W&C, Cravath, etc.) on your bidlist, but DO sign up for them in the second round -- you never know what's gonna happen: I got an offer from a firm that I signed up in the second round.

Also mass mail like crazy. I sent out 500+ resumes, and when journal results were out, I followed up with all the firms that had not got back to me. I got one call back out of mass mailing.

If you are diverse in any way, attend all the diversity job fairs: I attended quite a few: SF, LA, Boston, etc. I spent a ton of money travelling around all these job fairs but it was worth it. Besides, I got to see all these places, some of which I've never been to.

Just my $.02, hope it helps.

[Anonymous User]

What's the strategy for someone near or barely at the top third from Michigan for NYC? sorry for the hijack.. figured we were talking about NYC already

[jbiresq]

I second the suggestion to massmail but you need to get on this kind of networking sharpish: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 23&t=87297

Go to NALP, find LA firms and use the guide

[Anonymous User]

Had similar numbers at Cornell and was able to get Biglaw in NYC. You can overcome a low GPA if you nail your screener and call back interviews. I highly recommend reading the interviewing section of Guerrilla Tactics for Getting the Legal Job of Your Dreams for tips on how to answer difficult interview questions.

The most important question you need to prepare for is this: Are your grades an accurate representation of your abilities? (You'll need to come up with a good answer for why the answer is "no.")

[Anonymous User]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

if 3.3 is median, it seems nearly impossible for 3.2 to be bottom 20%, and unlikely that OP is deep into the bottom third. They are probably sitting somewhere in the third quartile, not very comfortable but not at the very bottom of the class as you suggest.

Quoted poster here. The median for each class is a 3.3 but that's almost certainly not the median for all first years. Not that I have any inside info or wish to recall statistics but my estimate is close enough to get the point across. I.e., a large majority of your oci competition will have an edge in grades.

[Anonymous User]

Just graduated duke. The advice to bid NYC firms with big classes sounds good in theory but a couple words of warning.

First, almost everyone (or enough to fill the slots) will be bidding these firms high since you won't otherwise get them in the lottery. That means that anyone who is interested in NYC will be bidding Cahill, Cadwalader, Weil (though they usually have 63 spots so bad example, but you get the idea) high because they know they probably won't get an interview if they don't. Even the DLJ members want safety interviews.

Second, there are only like 10 or so firms that meet that description (NYC, big classes, less selective) at OCI. If you're lucky you'll get screeners with 7.

Third, you are probably in the bottom 3rd (more likely bottom 20% or more) so unless you have something else big going for you (e.g., former military, dad who is a CEO of a fortune 500, absurd interviewing skills) you're still probably out of luck since they'll be seeing at least 24 other people, all with comparable resumes and better grades.

As final anecdotal evidence. I followed the bid strategy of big class, NYC, less selective firms because I was risk adverse (3.5+ gpa) and got like 12 screeners out of the lottery (before open signups for random other firms). Only a portion of those were firms meeting our general parameters.

I guess the point of this debbie downer post is to say don't count on OCI at all. Mass mail like a crazy person. If you have ties, target smaller, less competitive markets where the duke name and your ties will make you standout.

if 3.3 is median, it seems nearly impossible for 3.2 to be bottom 20%, and unlikely that OP is deep into the bottom third. They are probably sitting somewhere in the third quartile, not very comfortable but not at the very bottom of the class as you suggest.

Quoted poster here. The median for each class is a 3.3 but that's almost certainly not the median for all first years. Not that I have any inside info or wish to recall statistics but my estimate is close enough to get the point across. I.e., a large majority of your oci competition will have an edge in grades.

Duke 3L here. It's true that 3.3 is the median per class. I don't know that the overall median is much higher though. For OP to be in the bottom 25%, the median would have to be way higher than 3.3, which seems unlikely.

I'd guess median was in the 3.3X area. I'd be shocked if it's 3.4 or higher (for 1Ls).

I'm genuinely curious if you have any inside info though. I had a 3.3 GPA in 1L and always thought "at least in I'm in the middle, I guess"

[intlsplitr]

Can someone explain, mathematically, how the overall median can be higher than 3.3 if every class has a strict 3.3 median?

[FlowBro]

Can someone explain, mathematically, how the overall median can be higher than 3.3 if every class has a strict 3.3 median?

Curious to know this as well. How does 3.2ish put you so far down in the class? Seems closer to median to me like third quartile as a poster above said.

[Anonymous User]

Correction: the poster below is right. Median is not average. If the average of X sets of data is 3.3, then the weighted average of all or some of these sets of data will have a 3.3 average. The same cannot be said for median.