How bad is a no offer? Forum

[Sebastain12]

Hey Guys,

I wanted to see if anyone can provide direct guidance on how damaging a no offer is to future employment. I currently am in a SA position with a 200+ attorney firm. They have made clear that of the 4 of us, they will extend 1 or 2 offers. For me this is bad news. I come from the worst school, it's out of state, don't appear to be a firm favorite, and all of the SAs seem pretty evenly matched. Additionally I am a little bit older and mature, and have thus struggled to "drink and fit in" at the social events.

My next SA position is with a 50+ firm and I was told today that they somehow overbooked their class. They have 7 SAs. I was told over the phone that they also will only be making a few offers. From all outward appearances, the chances seem reasonable to get no offered from both. What are everyone's thoughts?

[ran12]

No offer is obviously bad regardless of what the offer rate is at the firm(s). It's gonna come up in interviews you have for jobs. You're right that b/c of your age and other factors mentioned that it'll be tougher to get an offer. Also seems like you're splitting at 2 firms so that doesn't help your chances since you'll have less face time and opportunities to show what you can do. With that said, all you can do is work hard and be more social. It's expected that when you get a SA that you'll be able to do the work so when offer decisions are made, it'll likely come down to firm fit.

[thegrayman]

Were you able to secure other offers from OCI? If so, might not be a bad idea to reach out to them expressing interest again. I have no idea the appropriate method to do this (I picked the wrong firm? Bad fit?), maybe someone else can chime in.

I know someone who was able to get another biglaw offer after a SA no-offer, from another firm that originally gave them a SA offer. They had a good relationship and reached out to the other firm immediately after getting no-offered. It's not easy but also isn't impossible.

[Jchance]

Were you able to secure other offers from OCI? If so, might not be a bad idea to reach out to them expressing interest again. I have no idea the appropriate method to do this (I picked the wrong firm? Bad fit?), maybe someone else can chime in.

I know someone who was able to get another biglaw offer after a SA no-offer, from another firm that originally gave them a SA offer. They had a good relationship and reached out to the other firm immediately after getting no-offered. It's not easy but also isn't impossible.

With this strategy, u should reach out to your other SA offers from OCI ASAP, don't wait until getting no-offered to reach out.

Good luck OP.

[sparty99]

You need to change your attitude. You are already thinking you will be the one to get no-offered. You need to come to work with the mindset that you will get the job done. You are older which means you have previous experience. This is an asset not a deterrence. If they want you in at 9 am, you show up at 8. If they want you to leave at 5 pm, you work until 7 pm. Work on the weekends to finish projects on time. Make them dependent on you. Additionally, make sure you go to social events. You are at a disadvantage because you split, so you need to do everything possible to land a good impression. Invite people on the hiring committee to lunch.

Obviously, being no-offered is bad, but it is not the kiss of death. Not every firm will ask why you are no offered. Even if they do, you can state a non-damaging reason and that will be that.

[andythefir]

I was in a very similar position to the one you're describing last year. Firm said they'd have 2 summers, probably keep 1, maybe 2 if the firm was doing well enough. Didn't offer either of us. We both landed on our feet, you will be ok.

The first question I have is whether the firm where you're working has a reputation for not keeping summers. This is the only way anyone can really answer how bad a no-offer is. I was in a very small market where only a few firms even had summer programs, and everyone knew the firm where I was working rarely kept summers. If this is the case, you should be able to find a smaller firm to pick you up eventually, even if not in the fall of 3L (sorry). Your firm is burning time in training you, you're getting experience billing, so small firms may be willing to take a semi-trained associate rather than someone who has no firm experience.

More importantly, you have to have the right attitude for the summer. It's miserable to feel like you're fighting for your career with every memo. But the better way to look at it is that you're better off making relationships than not making a single bluebook error the entire summer. Go to every single event, do your best to not let on how awful it is. As someone said, put in the hours you need to do your best, but be aware that there's just no way you can do any real work perfectly, and it's more important to build relationships.

At the end of the day, do your best, but be aware there's a good chance neither firm will hire you. If they're telling you now it may be even worse than they're letting on. Apply to clerkships, other jobs, set up externships/clinics for the fall so you can hit the ground running in an alternate career line. Good luck.

[Sebastain12]

I appreciate the advice... I have been doing my absolute best. I do go to every event, and am always chatty and jovial. It has just been hard to watch the other summers really make connections with the "drinking crown" that I simply cannot make. My work product has been good. My main issue is that the managing partner just flat out doesn't like me. I have no idea why. I have always been happy and outgoing with him. He seems to really only like the female summers lol..... On the hiring side, this firm is notorious for large summer classes with only 1 or 2 offers. I recently found out that a few summer ago they had 10 clerks and offered 1.

[twenty 8]

The consequences of a No Offer is like Donald Trump saying “you’re fired,” only worse. I find it difficult to accept that any firm planning to offer 4 people would invite 8 people to SA. That is heartless. There are a lot of employers who would believe that a No-Offer means the candidate somehow screwed up or is screwed up.

[Sebastain12]

Yeah... it does seems bit heartless. When I took the SA positions they really down-played the fact that they didn't give 100% offers. They said things like "we give almost everyone who wants to be here an offer, and "usually by the end of the SA it is pretty clear that there are a few people that just don't want to be here." Just a few more examples.... "during the economic downturn we just couldn't take as many as was previously possible but things are looking better," and "we reduced our summer class size just for this issue." That was back in October when I was deciding whether to take the offer... Come day 1 of the SA the managing partner walks in and says "we don't have jobs for everyone in here and we have always been very selective." Totally different tune.

[andythefir]

The consequences of a No Offer is like Donald Trump saying “you’re fired,” only worse. I find it difficult to accept that any firm planning to offer 4 people would invite 8 people to SA. That is heartless. There are a lot of employers who would believe that a No-Offer means the candidate somehow screwed up or is screwed up.

It may be true that a no-offer would be a major liability in bigger markets, but it's different in small markets where there is no expectation of 100% offer rates.

[Anonymous User]

How will major market firms react to a no-offer from a secondary market firm that never gives 100% offers? Only there half of the summer. Looking at top DC firms.

Edit: not the above anon. Haven't been no offered yet, but worried.

[ze2151]

I believe firms should be on notice as to how damaging a no offer is. This isn't a very well-behaved firm if it's acting the way you describe. I wouldn't out the firm if I were you, but hopefully Above the Law figures out who is doing this to summers (on what seems like a pretty regular basis).

[sparty99]

How will major market firms react to a no-offer from a secondary market firm that never gives 100% offers? Only there half of the summer. Looking at top DC firms.

Edit: not the above anon. Haven't been no offered yet, but worried.

Who cares. As I mentioned, a no offer is not the kiss of death. I know people who have landed firm jobs after being no-offered. There are reasons why people get no offered outside of bad performance.

[Dafaq]

...a no offer is not the kiss of death.

For some (maybe most) a No Offer is a catastrophe. If you don’t agree, drop by the Vale of Tears and see how others are dealing with no offers. Be sure to imply that it's not the kiss of death. ((let us know how it goes))

[09042014]

I believe firms should be on notice as to how damaging a no offer is. This isn't a very well-behaved firm if it's acting the way you describe. I wouldn't out the firm if I were you, but hopefully Above the Law figures out who is doing this to summers (on what seems like a pretty regular basis).

These aren't big law firms they are midlaw or small firms.

It won't hurt as much because those firms aren't known for giving everyone offers.

But if you couldn't get big law as a 2L I'm not sure what you think will be different this time.

[Anonymous User]

I was no offered in a small market. It's not a kiss of death, but it's very close to that. If you are a 2L, it will be very hard for you to get interviews 3L year. I end up getting 2 callbacks after a lot of hustling. I didn't get these callbacks until close to graduation. This was frightening.

I suggest you get in touch quickly with your favorite professors and Dean of you law school. Explain everything and get the ball rolling. My new job is better than my no-offer firm, but when I was no offer, it was devastating.

[sparty99]

...a no offer is not the kiss of death.

For some (maybe most) a No Offer is a catastrophe. If you don’t agree, drop by the Vale of Tears and see how others are dealing with no offers. Be sure to imply that it's not the kiss of death. ((let us know how it goes))

A no offer is certainly catastrophe/close to the kiss of death with regards to a person getting mid to big law employment. But that is because these PLACES HARDLY EVERY HIRE THIRD YEAR LAW STUDENTS. Of course not having a job offer after 2L is bad, but the OP already knows this.

Is a no offer the kiss of death with regards to someone not being able to get big law employment at other firms that are actually hiring third year students? Hells no. And this is what the original poster was basically alluding to and this is what I mean that a no offer is not life shattering. It's not something that you want to happen, but some firms won't ask and even if they do, the student can come up with a non damaging answer/spin to why they were no offered.

[rpupkin]

If they want you in at 9 am, you show up at 8. If they want you to leave at 5 pm, you work until 7 pm. Work on the weekends to finish projects on time.

This is generally poor advice for a summer associate. At most firms, summers are given light workloads and manageable assignments. If you regularly show up extra early and leave extra late (and/or come into the office on weekends without being asked to do so), your firm will think that you are struggling to complete relatively easy work.

You should, of course, arrive on time every day. And I agree that you should finish all assigned projects on schedule. But if you need extra time to do a good job on those projects, do the work from home. You want the firm to think that you're an efficient worker.

[rad lulz]

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[JusticeJackson]

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[Pokemon]

The consequences of a No Offer is like Donald Trump saying “you’re fired,” only worse. I find it difficult to accept that any firm planning to offer 4 people would invite 8 people to SA. That is heartless. There are a lot of employers who would believe that a No-Offer means the candidate somehow screwed up or is screwed up.

Southern firms regularly split summers and bring on more SAs than they have openings. Not hard to believe at all

Bringing on more summers than you have space for is bullshit, in my opinion. why waste firm resources and why go out of your way to screw summers? At the very least, they should give you a heads up before you accept their offer, so you put that firm at the bottom of your list.

To OP: all you can do is try your best, apply to clerkships (including discovery commissioners, trial courts, family courts, etc.), and stay positive. I'm not looking for the biggest drinker when I evaluate summers, I want sometone that I can rely on to do good work. Best of luck.

I agree that they should give heads up before hand, but if they do that, I do not necessarily see anything wrong with hiring more SAs than you have space. Student can choose not to go to the firm, and the firm might not see it as a waste but as part of its selection process.

[twenty 8]

Keep in mind that a No Offer means you’ll be reaching into your purse for Barbri and exam fees. Those are substantial out-of-pocket dollar$.