Reasonable Salary for a New Associate in Denver, small firm Forum

[gatorito]

As far as I have heard so far, any offer for an associateship is reasonable for a lowly law clerk who passed the bar and was just admitted. It seems like this is the prevailing advice I have received and I just wanted to get some feedback.

I work in a small insurance defense firm in Denver, and am not sure what is a reasonable salary. I am inclined to say $50,000 is the lowest I will go, but I am not sure what to ask for. Through the grapevine I have heard that the partners are pleased with my work, and plan on making me an offer. Ideally, I would like them to suggest a figure and see if they will go up from there. However, this might be a disastrous idea (all of you are welcome to pitch in as to the etiquette/strategy) and it might happen that they ask me to suggest a figure. If they do, I am not sure what to suggest. Generally, it has been my experience in negotiating smaller things like buying a car or rent for an apartment, that you should ask for a slightly higher figure and come down from there (Getting to Yes even suggests pushing back against someone's second offer so that THEY save face, i.e. rapidly accepting their counter-offer makes them feel like they could have gotten you for less).

So is it reasonable in small law (trying to be discreet here so think between 5-10 attorneys and 5 paralegals) to ask for $70,000 and let them take you down to $65,000? Or ask for $60,000 and end up at $55,000? $80,000 and go down to $75,000?

Thanks in advance. I anticipate a fair amount of admonitions against even asking for a salary amount, as I'm in an incredibly weak negotiating position and should take whatever is offered. So my apologies in advance.

[bizzike]

I think the key here would be to find some peer firms and figure out what an acceptable salary band is. That way if you get low balled you can present evidence of well competitor X offers this. Conversely, if they give you above market you know to take the money and run. Knowing what competitors pay will also be useful if/when you decide to lateral.

[gatorito]

I have tried to do just that. Unfortunately I haven't heard anything concrete back so I am seeking advice here, hoping someone in Denver reads this forum.

[sundontshine]

Have you asked your law school for data about what firms with <10 or <20 attorneys have paid recent grads? Doesn't need to be anything specific, but they should have no issue telling you some salary ranges.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I've heard 60k.

The 25th percentile salary for private firm jobs from CU was 60k, with 60 of the 75 graduates in firms reporting salaries. This was class of 2013. It's on their website.

I would ask for 65 and hope you get 60? Good luck.

[ms9]

You should be able to get more than 50k, but obviously get the offer first and then negotiate. I have seen way too many people try to negotiate before an offer, and then they lose out.

I would say 55 -60k sounds right to me.

[LeDique]

You should be able to get more than 50k, but obviously get the offer first and then negotiate. I have seen way too many people try to negotiate before an offer, and then they lose out.

I would say 55 -60k sounds right to me.

I would agree with this

[legalese_retard]

If the firm is hesitant at giving you a large base salary, try negotiating your bonus potential as well as timing. You have to be generating enough income to warrant your salary.

I don't know if you have access to this information as a law clerk, but try and determine what the hourly rate is for first-year insurance defense attorneys in Denver. The basic equation firms use in determining associate salary is hourly rate times hours billed divided by three. A third goes to expenses, a third goes to partner profit, and a third goes to associate salary. Even if you will be working 2,000+ hours per year, the firm will be considering a much more conservative number. Remember, not all hours you bill will be collectable. Insurance companies are notorious for slashing hours billed, especially by younger associates.

You might want to calculate how much you would get paid working only 1,000 hours per year and at 1,600 hours per year to give you a realistic range. Again, not all firms operate in this manner and there are several additional factors firms will look at.

[gatorito]

I've heard 60k.

The 25th percentile salary for private firm jobs from CU was 60k, with 60 of the 75 graduates in firms reporting salaries. This was class of 2013. It's on their website.

I would ask for 65 and hope you get 60? Good luck.

Is that the the top 25th percentile or lowest 25th percentile?

[holdencaulfield]

Ideally, I would like them to suggest a figure and see if they will go up from there.

I usually do not see firms "suggest" a figure. Generally, they make and offer, and you can take it or not. From there, I wouldn't try to negotiate unless 1) you have another offer, or 2) they give a strong indication that they are open to negotiation.

Negotiation can come after your first year, assuming you are a productive associate.

If they ask what your salary requirement is, say $75,000.00.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

I've heard 60k.

The 25th percentile salary for private firm jobs from CU was 60k, with 60 of the 75 graduates in firms reporting salaries. This was class of 2013. It's on their website.

I would ask for 65 and hope you get 60? Good luck.

Is that the the top 25th percentile or lowest 25th percentile?

Lowest 25th. Top was much higher.

[gatorito]

I've heard 60k.

The 25th percentile salary for private firm jobs from CU was 60k, with 60 of the 75 graduates in firms reporting salaries. This was class of 2013. It's on their website.

I would ask for 65 and hope you get 60? Good luck.

Is that the the top 25th percentile or lowest 25th percentile?

Lowest 25th. Top was much higher.

Do you have a link? Couldn't find it on CU Law's career website. Thanks.

This makes a difference because the NALP's information from 2012 puts the bottom 25th percentile in Colorado at $50,000 with 70 people reporting.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

http://www.colorado.edu/law/careers/graduates

[gatorito]

http://www.colorado.edu/law/careers/graduates

Thanks for the info. I see the table about midway down the webpage which lists the 25th percentile of private employers at $60,000. I'm not sure if this is skewed because it does not segregate between large and small firms in the private sector.

[gatorito]

UPDATE: So two lawyers have left/are leaving my firm. One is a senior associate who had his/her last day last week, and the other is a more junior associate who put in his/her two week's notice Monday. In a firm of 8-9 lawyers this seems like a big shift (the older associate is retiring and the younger associate was only employed as a paralegal so he/she moved on). I'm hoping this gives me better standing going into a conversation with the partners. Speaking of which, I scheduled a conversation with them tomorrow.

In preparation, I'm close with one of the remaining young associates, who like me, clerked here before being given an offer. He/She said that when he/she had a similar conversation with the same partners, they first made an offer to him, and he came back with a counter-offer, and they ultimately settled on a figure. So it seems like for this firm, it is acceptable to negotiate.

So from data everyone has been generous enough to give me (http://www.nalp.org/sal_by_state_ft_pri ... 12_#FT2_10 and http://www.colorado.edu/law/careers/graduates) it seems like I should ultimately arrive somewhere around $55 to $65 a year. If that is my target what should my counter-offer be? (If their offer is already in that range I will still counter-offer for more to see where I can arrive at and not have them feel like they should have offered less up front, but I'm not sure how much more. Say $75 if they offer $55? Say $85 if they offer $65?)(Maybe more likely is that their initial offer won't be in that $55 to $65 range. Then should I have a fixed figure to suggest that will help get me to that salary range? Maybe automatically say $75 whether they offer $40 or $50?)

[LeDique]

…do you even have a job offer yet

[kalvano]

Why not just ask the associate you are close with what the firm pays? Or the junior that's leaving?

[smallfirmassociate]

I wouldn't personally ask for $75k or $85k if you suspect associate pay there is normally around $60k. I think asking for 65 or 68 or maybe 70 would be the high end. With the small size of your firm, it's not like your raises will be based on some strict formula. So you can get in there at whatever salary, do well, and ask for a raise next year. I also feel that you should be careful what you wish for. As a practical matter, you don't want the partners to look at the books--or your face!--some months down the road and have their first thought be that they are overpaying you. I know this goes against all career advice you would normally get in a typical job, but I'd rather be slightly underpaid at a small firm, be profitable for the partners, and make sure that everyone who will be deciding on whether I make partner has a nice warm and fuzzy about my value. If you suspect you won't make partner, or not for a long time, then the pendulum swings to where you want to ask for more money now.

[Anonymous User]

One of my friends worked as a patent agent at small Chicago law firm and his starting salary was $75k per year . . . without a law degree . . .

[fundamentallybroken]

One of my friends worked as a patent agent at small Chicago law firm and his starting salary was $75k per year . . . without a law degree . . .

So, you came in to say you had a friend in a different position, in a different city? And this friend made money? That's helpful.

One of my friends works in New York, producing advertising for a small publishing company. He makes about $85k per year . . . without a law degree . . .

[paayter]

One of my friends worked as a patent agent at small Chicago law firm and his starting salary was $75k per year . . . without a law degree . . .

So, you came in to say you had a friend in a different position, in a different city? And this friend made money? That's helpful.

One of my friends works in New York, producing advertising for a small publishing company. He makes about $85k per year . . . without a law degree . . .

i have a friend who works at a fast food joint who makes 17k per year and is slated to get 100 percent raise if laws pass regarding 15 dollar min wage....WITHOUT a law degree