Law firm SA or judicial intern???? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Hi guys,

Hope your finals and/or work is going fine. I have a quandary: I am at a Top 7 school with a gpa around the top third of the class.

Today, I interviewed and was offered a summer associate position at an Am Law 200 firm. They pay less than market but it is a substantial sum nonetheless.

However, on the other hand, I'd accepted an unpaid judicial internship at a federal appellate court judge.

What should I do? Should I renege the judge?

Please HELP!!!!!

[minnbills]

Law firm and it's not close. Congrats BTW

[dkb17xzx]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

see if you can work out a split summer compromise.

congrats on both offers though

[kalvano]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

This is terrible advice. The judge will either understand or not, but in no way, shape, or form should you take an unpaid judicial internship over a paid firm summer. In all likelihood, the judge will find someone else to take the spot and not even remember your name in 2 weeks.

Either way, take the firm job and hold on to it for dear life.

[UMich11]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

This is terrible advice. The judge will either understand or not, but in no way, shape, or form should you take an unpaid judicial internship over a paid firm summer. In all likelihood, the judge will find someone else to take the spot and not even remember your name in 2 weeks.

Either way, take the firm job and hold on to it for dear life.

A lot of CDO's threaten repercussions for reneging on Judges. I've heard of people being kept out of OCI b/c of this. Check with your CDO to make sure you didn't sign some form stating you wouldn't or else. Just to be safe. Otherwise, take the firm if you have no interest in clerking, etc. If you can't renege, see if you can still get an RA as well. A lot of Prof's will let you do it from afar and understand - I thought of doing it but I have a paid gig this summer and would rather relax.

[kalvano]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

This is terrible advice. The judge will either understand or not, but in no way, shape, or form should you take an unpaid judicial internship over a paid firm summer. In all likelihood, the judge will find someone else to take the spot and not even remember your name in 2 weeks.

Either way, take the firm job and hold on to it for dear life.

A lot of CDO's threaten repercussions for reneging on Judges. I've heard of people being kept out of OCI b/c of this. Check with your CDO to make sure you didn't sign some form stating you wouldn't or else. Just to be safe. Otherwise, take the firm if you have no interest in clerking, etc. If you can't renege, see if you can still get an RA as well. A lot of Prof's will let you do it from afar and understand - I thought of doing it but I have a paid gig this summer and would rather relax.

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

But really, just don't tell them. Call the judge and explain and he or she will almost certainly be understanding. If needed, offer to intern over the school year. Then take the firm job and just enjoy yourself. If Career Services asks, tell them, but otherwise don't bring it up.

[Jchance]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

This is terrible advice. The judge will either understand or not, but in no way, shape, or form should you take an unpaid judicial internship over a paid firm summer. In all likelihood, the judge will find someone else to take the spot and not even remember your name in 2 weeks.

Either way, take the firm job and hold on to it for dear life.

+1. Explain to the judge that you just got a paid SA, and ask for guidance.

[Anonymous User]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

This is terrible advice. The judge will either understand or not, but in no way, shape, or form should you take an unpaid judicial internship over a paid firm summer. In all likelihood, the judge will find someone else to take the spot and not even remember your name in 2 weeks.

Either way, take the firm job and hold on to it for dear life.

A lot of CDO's threaten repercussions for reneging on Judges. I've heard of people being kept out of OCI b/c of this. Check with your CDO to make sure you didn't sign some form stating you wouldn't or else. Just to be safe. Otherwise, take the firm if you have no interest in clerking, etc. If you can't renege, see if you can still get an RA as well. A lot of Prof's will let you do it from afar and understand - I thought of doing it but I have a paid gig this summer and would rather relax.

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

But really, just don't tell them. Call the judge and explain and he or she will almost certainly be understanding. If needed, offer to intern over the school year. Then take the firm job and just enjoy yourself. If Career Services asks, tell them, but otherwise don't bring it up.

I did this for a paid gig, that wasnt a SA and judge understood- money = better than not. Judge didnt care, doubt he still remembers my name

[dkb17xzx]

guess i was wrong.... i was told that under no circumstances should i ever renege on a judge and even read on TLS about judges getting infuriated and calling CSO to complain.

my bad, OP

[Danger Zone]

guess i was wrong.... i was told that under no circumstances should i ever renege on a judge and even read on TLS about judges getting infuriated and calling CSO to complain.

my bad, OP

That's for clerkships.

[reasonable_man]

can't renege on a judge -- you'll burn a lotta bridges

This is terrible advice. The judge will either understand or not, but in no way, shape, or form should you take an unpaid judicial internship over a paid firm summer. In all likelihood, the judge will find someone else to take the spot and not even remember your name in 2 weeks.

Either way, take the firm job and hold on to it for dear life.

A lot of CDO's threaten repercussions for reneging on Judges. I've heard of people being kept out of OCI b/c of this. Check with your CDO to make sure you didn't sign some form stating you wouldn't or else. Just to be safe. Otherwise, take the firm if you have no interest in clerking, etc. If you can't renege, see if you can still get an RA as well. A lot of Prof's will let you do it from afar and understand - I thought of doing it but I have a paid gig this summer and would rather relax.

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

But really, just don't tell them. Call the judge and explain and he or she will almost certainly be understanding. If needed, offer to intern over the school year. Then take the firm job and just enjoy yourself. If Career Services asks, tell them, but otherwise don't bring it up.

Spot on. Any suggestion that this kid should take the unpaid internship with the judge over an SA at a AmLaw 200 firm is absurd. Its worse than absurd. Its fucking dumb. Ditch the judge and take the SA. Congrats.

[Anonymous User]

OP here:

How would I even go about rejecting the judge? I'm technically supposed to start in two weeks and I'm really worried about my credibility and future repercussions.

On the other hand, getting an SA position as a 1L in this economy is amazing.

I appreciate all your feedback guys. Thanks so much

[Jchance]

+1. Explain to the judge that you just got a paid SA, and ask for guidance.

Self-quoting because I already told you how. The best way to renege is for the judge to suggest/urge you to take the SA gig. A judge typically understands the market and how it works if you lay out your situation to that judge.

[Stringer Bell]

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

You seriously think the OP's career will best be served by leaking a story to ATL about their CSO getting pissed because OP reneged on a judge? You are wrong about the latter part as well. There are plenty of CSO's that would rather not piss off a circuit judge vs. having one additional person land an SA.

[middlemarch]

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

You seriously think the OP's career will best be served by leaking a story to ATL about their CSO getting pissed because OP reneged on a judge? You are wrong about the latter part as well. There are plenty of CSO's that would rather not piss off a circuit judge vs. having one additional person land an SA.

Unlikely that a "T7" school (i.e. Penn) is going to be worried about its OCI numbers if they hold out a student. Could see them, and any professors OP may have tapped for a recommendation, worried about clerkship placement though.

[kalvano]

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

You seriously think the OP's career will best be served by leaking a story to ATL about their CSO getting pissed because OP reneged on a judge? You are wrong about the latter part as well. There are plenty of CSO's that would rather not piss off a circuit judge vs. having one additional person land an SA.

I think OP's career would be best served by taking the job for this summer and fuck his Career Services if they piss and moan. I highly doubt the judge is going to get pissed off about an unpaid 1L intern taking a firm job instead. If his Career Services tries any shady shit, then yes, he should go after them just as hard. Career Services is the most useless and out-of-touch part of law school, and fuck them.

But, as I said, the best approach is just not tell them. It's not their business anyway.

[Stringer Bell]

Fuck Career Services. And if they give him/her grief about it, take it public to ATL and everywhere else. Fuck Career Services so hard. If they say "no OCI" then just mail the firms. If you've got the grades for OCI, then you'll be fine either way. But Career Services will, by and large, be terrified of doing anything that may hurt the school's numbers.

You seriously think the OP's career will best be served by leaking a story to ATL about their CSO getting pissed because OP reneged on a judge? You are wrong about the latter part as well. There are plenty of CSO's that would rather not piss off a circuit judge vs. having one additional person land an SA.

I think OP's career would be best served by taking the job for this summer and fuck his Career Services if they piss and moan. I highly doubt the judge is going to get pissed off about an unpaid 1L intern taking a firm job instead. If his Career Services tries any shady shit, then yes, he should go after them just as hard. Career Services is the most useless and out-of-touch part of law school, and fuck them.

But, as I said, the best approach is just not tell them. It's not their business anyway.

I don't want to get in a pissing match, but you are giving bad advice and OP would be wise to take it with a grain of salt. Becoming involved in an ATL story will almost never be a good idea. One of OP's Google search results will be about getting into an argument with their CSO because they welched on a commitment to a circuit judge. That would generally be much worse for someone's career than passing on a 1L SA. You also seemed to say in your last post that mailing firms would yield the same results as going through OCI, which is completely false.

Additionally, a judge could definitely be pissed that someone bailed on them two weeks before they were supposed to start. OP took that spot from someone else on what is probably a very long list of people. I'm not sure how OP wound up with the SA. Maybe it was a firm they had already initially interviewed with several months ago. But after accepting an internship with a federal judge, OP probably should not have been continuing to interview and send out resumes.

I'm not saying OP should or should not take the SA. Turning down the SA could piss off the firm as well if they were unaware OP already commited to something else for the summer. But it is more complex than some ITT think.

[kalvano]

No, it's really not complicated. All I'm saying is that there is no way an unpaid internship with a judge is any way comparable to, or worth doing, over paid firm SA. The sooner you have an inside track to a real job after law school, the better off you are. I'm offering options to the OP should his Career Services decide to get pissy. Otherwise, my main advice is to just inform the judge and take the offer without involving Career Services. But, if they do get upset about it and try and block OP from something that he would otherwise be entitled to, then by all means push back using any available resources. I'm not suggesting he go from zero to getting ATL involved, but that's always an option.

If there really is a long list of people that want to work for the judge, then he should have no trouble filling the spot. But again, the point is to get a job, not make a judge or Career Services happy.

[Stringer Bell]

We seem to be under different assumptions about OP. Since they got the circuit internship, I'm assuming they go to a good school, and since they got the SA I am assuming they have good grades. This would mean landing a 2L SA would have been almost a guarantee. In that scenario it is reasonable to worry about something that could really bite you in the ass for trying to get a job with other firms or trying to land an A3 clerkship.

[kalvano]

I operate under the assumption that, even if you go to Yale, nothing is guaranteed until you have it in hand and signed and you should take what you can get. The Vale thread is full of people with good grades who went to good schools that still are in terrible positions.

[Elston Gunn]

I operate under the assumption that, even if you go to Yale, nothing is guaranteed until you have it in hand and signed and you should take what you can get. The Vale thread is full of people with good grades who went to good schools that still are in terrible positions.

Is it really full of Penn grads with the grades for 1L SAs? I doubt it. Anyway, there's a lot of putting the cart before the horse here.

OP, talk to CSO and see what they say. I'm sure they'll say not to renege, but try to feel out how big a deal they see it as. No sense worrying about them excluding you from OCI if they wouldn't actually do that.

Then, as someone else said, call the judge, explain the situation and ask for advice. If he/she seems understanding, then renege. If not, then it's a tougher call, and what to do depends on how you weigh the other advice in this thread and how CSO will react.

[Law Student 2848]

Depends on what you want to do long term? Go into Biglaw - take the SA. Judicial Clerkship - take the internship. But if you prefer the SA, I would just talk to the Judge about it, don't bother with your CSO.

[NYSprague]

Why did you apply for a job when you had another gig? Obviously you intended to accept it.

[Elston Gunn]

Depends on what you want to do long term? Go into Biglaw - take the SA. Judicial Clerkship - take the internship.

This makes no sense. The only judge who might possibly care that you'd done a 1L internship is the judge you actually interned for. It's not going to materially affect your chances at a clerkship. And clerkship vs. biglaw is not a career choice. Most clerks do biglaw afterward.

[Stringer Bell]

I operate under the assumption that, even if you go to Yale, nothing is guaranteed until you have it in hand and signed and you should take what you can get. The Vale thread is full of people with good grades who went to good schools that still are in terrible positions.

I'm guessing some folks in the Vale have been no offered as well, which could happen to OP. Also, what if reneging with this judge screws OP over at the firm? Maybe the firm has an appellate section that appears before this circuit and doesn't want the judge pissed at them. Or maybe the firm regularly has cases in front of a district judge that is good friends with the circuit judge.

I don't know the answer to any of these questions. But the potential reaction of OP's CSO, the judge, and even the firm if it gets back to them, are relevant.