Big law hours: Whiners gonna whine Forum

[BigRob]

When I was in high school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder college would be.
When I was in college, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder law school would be.
When I was in law school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a summer associate would be.
When I was a summer associate, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a first-year associate would be.


It's not the work; it's the people. Those who are perennially "busy" bring it on themselves. There are more than enough hours in a day to do all the work you need to, go to the gym, tan, and do your laundry.

P.S. Will report back when, as a second-year associate, my first-year peers had whined to me about being busy as I coasted along.

[sparty99]

Thank you for that useless post.

[Lacepiece23]

I kinda feel the same way to be honest up until this point in my life which is a 2L in law school.

[Flanker1067]

I find this has almost entirely to do with what you want to do in life. If you don't mind being a dull person, then you can always find enough time for the little that you want to do.

That being said, complaining is still annoying and I wished that law students would shut the hell up. As a lawyer, I find that a lot less people complain.

Edit: So to add, yes you're right, it is the people. But being interesting and leading an interesting life demands constantly being busy if you work long (or relatively long) hours.

[Wooostl2012]

The difference between high school and college and a big law job is that it's the hours that matter, not the work. It's easy to coast along if you don't need to study as much, or if you're more efficient in your work, because you literally have more free time.

In big law (other than as a summer associate which is always a ridiculous job), the point is the hours. You literally cannot coast along and have more free time, unless the people whining are grinders who are pulling 2600 billable hour years. Some people probably don't mind working as much as big law sometimes requires, but it's literally impossible to have an interesting life outside of work in a 300 hour month. Unless you are a dull person.

[unlicensedpotato]

I agree with some of this, but...

Dude. It's been either 5 months or 17 months.

[spleenworship]

Thank you for that useless post.

As much as I usually hate agreeing with sparty... this gets a big ole +1 from me.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I agree with some of this, but...

Dude. It's been either 5 months or 17 months.

I'm pretty sure he hasn't even started as an associate yet, actually.

[rpupkin]

When I was in high school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder college would be.
When I was in college, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder law school would be.
When I was in law school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a summer associate would be.
When I was a summer associate, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a first-year associate would be.

Two years ago, I could've written what you just wrote, word for word. And then I worked as a first-year associate at a big law firm. Dude, it's different. Trust me. I found undergrad and law school easy. In fact, I think big law may be worse for people who found law school easy, because, in contrast to some of your hard-working peers, you never develop the habits that you need to work 10-14 hours a day, week in and week out.

Also, do people actually whine about being "too busy" as a summer associate? What?

[Dr. Mantis Toboggan]

When I was in high school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder college would be.
When I was in college, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder law school would be.
When I was in law school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a summer associate would be.
When I was a summer associate, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a first-year associate would be.

Two years ago, I could've written what you just wrote, word for word. And then I worked as a first-year associate at a big law firm. Dude, it's different. Trust me. I found undergrad and law school easy. In fact, I think big law may be worse for people who found law school easy, because, in contrast to some of your hard-working peers, you never develop the habits that you need to work 10-14 hours a day, week in and week out.

Also, do people actually whine about being "too busy" as a summer associate? What?

Something in OP's post doesn't quite add up. If your billing requirement is 2000 hours, then it is "the work" contrary to OP's opinion. You still need to make your hours requirement whether you are super efficient or not. So no, there are not "more than enough hours in a day to do all the work you need to do" because if you are super efficient and finish your work before everyone else, guess what, you just get more work.

[MinEMorris]

I generally agree with you and have felt the same way throughout my life, but I still believe that being a first year associate would be different. You might take note of the fact that (1) your first two examples were school, where you're paying someone else and they don't give a feck what you do so long as you pay, and (2) being a summer associate is a recruiting event, not a test run as an associate. Summer programs are operated at a loss. As an associate, the firm has every incentive to make you work as long and hard as they possibly can. Literally, they make good money for every additional six minutes you work, not how much material you get through. Find a parallel in any of your other examples.

But, some people seem to mind it less than others. And it sounds like firms vary on exactly how crazy they are. So you might just feel cool with it after all.

[BigRob]

Let's run some numbers.

2,000 billed hours a year; let's say 2,500 hours in the office.
Assuming two weeks of vacation per year, that averages to forty hours billed/fifty hours in the office per week.
That's 10am-8pm, five days a week.* Not that bad, whiners.
*Variance exists. $160k + bonus (starting) = dealwithit.jpg.

Let's also not forget that many firms require less than 2,000 billed hours -- some require 1,800, for instance, and there's no real penalty for falling short other than a (probably not even stern), "Hey, you need to bill some more to get a better bonus."

TL;DR of this thread: In all stages of life, whiners gonna whine. "That's what I love about these whiners, man. I get older, they keep on whining."

[smaug_]

yes, your workload will be even and consistent allowing you to work nearly the same number of hours each/each week.

that's how jobs like these work, you're absolutely correct

[BarbellDreams]

I think the OP is sort of ridiculous, but he does bring up an interesting point. I have noticed that when I am REALLY on point (as in, no distraction whatsoever, I am just really in the zone) I can get work done in a very reasonable amount of time. Furthermore, I believe working 12 hour days is very doable assuming your weekends aren't also 12 hour workdays. I have worked a 12 hour day every day this week (and 13 hours yesterday) and I am honestly fine. The problem is that some biglaw associates look at 12 hour workdays as a break, because they are typically working 14-15. Whether working 14 hour days is necessary or is just due to lack of productivity I don't know, but I doubt I could survive working 14-15 + weekends for very long. 65 hours per week is the magic number in my opinion. Once you're consistently going over that, things get a little crazy. Unfortunately, I have many friends that routinely go over that number, sometimes by like 20 hours.

[rpupkin]

Let's run some numbers.

2,000 billed hours a year; let's say 2,500 hours in the office.
Assuming two weeks of vacation per year, that averages to forty hours billed/fifty hours in the office per week.
That's 10am-8pm, five days a week.* Not that bad, whiners.

I know many ITT, myself included, have faulted your lack of perspective. But I see now that we were wrong to do so. You've got a pretty good grip on what the schedule of a big law associate is like.

Let's also not forget that many firms require less than 2,000 billed hours -- some require 1,800, for instance,

Good point. I know a guy at a firm who billed 1,670 hours last year, and he says he is highly valued. I mean, we all know that 2,000 hours is just a lofty target; few firms actually want their associates to meet--or, even worse, exceed--2,000 hours. Those associates will burn out and leave the firm. And let's face facts: that is not a good business model.

and there's no real penalty for falling short other than a (probably not even stern), "Hey, you need to bill some more to get a better bonus."

So true. I think once you look past the hordes of whiners who complain about everything, you'll find that many of the senior associates and partners at big law firms are warm and supportive. They are investing in you. They want you to succeed. Sure, a young associate may encounter the occasional bit of constructive criticism, but even those moments are drowned out by pats on the back, words of encouragement, and a drink "on the house" after work.

TL;DR of this thread: In all stages of life, whiners gonna whine. "That's what I love about these whiners, man. I get older, they keep on whining."

Hahahahahahaha......I think I'm going to engrave this on a plaque and hang it on my office wall. It's both funny AND true.

[smaug_]

rpupkin I'd appreciate your poasting a lot more if your trolling were funny.

Instead it's just a lot of effort for little payoff.

[jarofsoup]

I have heard that being allowed to telework at your firm is a major improvement of quality of life. I don't mean working the entire day at home, but being able to put in weekends and some of the late night time in at the house.

[rpupkin]

rpupkin I'd appreciate your poasting a lot more if your trolling were funny.

Instead it's just a lot of effort for little payoff.

I don't think that post was trolling; it wasn't intended to induce an argument. I though it was blatant sarcasm.

For what it's worth, I find your observations on TLS (as well as your own attempts at humor) consistently lame and boring. To each his own, I suppose.

[spleenworship]

The problem here, as smaug pointed out, is that workload is not very consistent, both from what I've heard and hat I've experienced in shitlaw. One day you bill 12 hours in 9... The next you're lucky to get 5 because you've got some no billable bullshit to do or you're running around looking for work because your project get cancelled or whatever. Or my favorite, when you bill 2 hours for legal research and your partner, for reasons good or bad, cuts that to 45 minutes. Shit like that happens. Also sometimes you have to stay up the night before a mediation or arbitration or trial and the next few days your billable output goes down because you are sleep deprived an fuzzy headed.


Or your partner assigns you a project at 10:15 at night and you have to get it done. Or you have to work all weekend. Sure, that's good for your billable a but hell on your stress level and family life.

It's not as cut and dry as OP suggests, and there are definite downsides to both biglaw specifically and the practice of law in general. Hell, even government workers at PD and prosecutors offices put in 60 hour weeks sometimes. So yeah, OP is a dumbass.


ETA: also, I though rpupkin's post was funny.

[thesealocust]

2nd year associate here:

The problem is that you're plugging yourself in to the most insane service industry the world has ever produced. It's also a profession that is built on a model of churning through bright and ambitious young people. Nothing about it tries to be sustainable or reasonable - ever.

On the one hand, there ARE whiners and there ARE grinders. There are people who will have 4 hours worth of work and spend 12 hours on it and ask for more work and complain the whole way. Not every day is a crisis, even though some people manufacture them for themselves.

On the other hand, when your deal comes in, Congress votes on a rule affecting your clients, or the case is about to go to trial, shit is going to get real and you are going to get tired.

When it's your turn, believe me, it's not going to be a choice between eating dinner at the desk + perfection and leaving at 6:30 and getting an A-. It's going to be a choice between working in a frenzy until midnight and hoping you don't royally fuck it up because of how tired you are. It drives people crazy and the hours can be fucking terrible as a result.

[kalvano]

This thread is hilarious. I had essentially the most manageable and consistent workflow possible in Biglaw and it was still a grind. I suppose if all I did was work, work out, and sleep, it would be fine.

I like that OP thinks he can just work on his schedule. It will be more like:

Get to work before your boss does.

Work on what you've been assigned.

Get ready to go home because you've been there 10-12 hours already and have billed a good bit.

Get an email from your boss that says "here, this stack of work that will take 6 hours needs to be done tonight."



Also amusing is the assumption that one can bill 40 hours and only be in the office 50 hours. It's amazing how quick all the little stuff adds up to a lot of time during the day. And work is not uninterrupted blocks of time - emails, phone calls, emergency tasks...they all suck the time from your day.



TL;DR - OP is an idiot with no idea what he is talking about.

[BigRob]

When I was in high school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder college would be.
When I was in college, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder law school would be.
When I was in law school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a summer associate would be.
When I was a summer associate, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a first-year associate would be.
When I was a first-year associate, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a mid-level associate would be.

Calling it now.

[kalvano]

When I was in law school, my peers whined to me about being too busy, and, as I coasted along, others told me how much harder being a summer associate would be.

I've CALI'd (booked) four classes and guess I must have spent at least a hundred hours each on the outlines for those classes.

To be clear, I wasn't responding to your idiotic trolling, I was responding to people who come to this forum for real advice and might have looked at your posts and thought they were correct in any way.

[AC Vegas]

I agree with this dude. however, law firm culture is different. those that work hard stick around and the ones that don't fall off quickly. There's a constant feeling that you should be working, even after you've done everything you have to do for the day. You feel the need to justify to your secretary why your going home early at 4:00, even of you got there at 7. You keep running faster but the finish line never shows up. Me and my friends are alright with it but we still complain. It's not whining. More like commiseration.

[A. Nony Mouse]

I just love the idea that someone who has not yet been a first-year associate makes a thread purposely to tell first-year associates they're doing it wrong. You could at least wait till you've actually experienced (not as an SA) this existence you're blathering on about.