AMAA: NLJ250 First-Year Associate Forum

[Anonymous User]

Writing this post is very strange, but here goes nothing. I joined TLS back in 2009 (making me a dinosaur) when I was thinking about going to law school. It was a huge asset to me in researching schools, scholarships, and the general uncertainty about law school. Despite terrible grades at a state university and a mediocre LSAT, I ended up matriculating to a semi-flyover T2 in 2010 on a decent scholarship. Throughout law school I got up-to-date advice from TLS posters regarding the non-existent job market. TLS was also huge for me during fall 2L recruiting, especially with advice about callbacks, offers, and general etiquette. Even last summer it was great for bar prep/questions/venting bar stress. TLS has been a great resource and along the way I have made many friends and have even had the pleasure of meeting some other TLS posters.

So I am starting this thread to try and give back to the TLS community. I was fortunate enough to land at a great NLJ 250 firm in a Secondary Market and I'm happy to share general information about the job market/life as a young associate/my summer experiences/law school in general/the ups and downs of firm life/whatever. This thread may not be useful for T14 students looking at Vault ranked firms in NY/DC/SF/LA/Chicago, but hopefully it can help out others looking for midlaw and/or in secondary markets.

About me: T2, top 20% after 1L year, 1L & 2L SAs, law review, externship, graduated just outside top 1/3.
About my firm: competitive secondary market, firm is top 3-4 in market, no vault ranking.

This is a relatively slow weekend, work-wise, so I'll be checking in periodically. Fire away.

[kykiske]

Thank you for taking the time to answer questions.

(1) What does your firm expect from you in terms of business development/generation?

(2) What are your hours like?

(3) Are there certain things you recommend that junior associates should do to impress the more senior associates/partners?

[thegrayman]

What is your stress level like?

[Anonymous User]

(1) What does your firm expect from you in terms of business development/generation?

(2) What are your hours like?

(3) Are there certain things you recommend that junior associates should do to impress the more senior associates/partners?

1.) Since I'm a first year associate, it's probably a bit early to know about the realistic expectations of business development. For my firm (and for most big firms, I imagine), they first want younger associates to focus on developing internal relationship and getting comfortable with partners in the practice area/group. Adjusting to the actual practice of law (and expectations) is enough for a first/second year associate. As far as business development for younger associates, the expectation is that we will go out into the community and make an effort to join groups/trade associations/stuff we are passionate about in order to meet people and start making connections. Partners in my group have been particularly helpful in bringing me to meetings with clients and pitches for new potential clients to get me experience and so I can get comfortable about the idea of business development.

During the second and third years, the firm gives a lot of training and opportunities to learn about business development. We have a great BD staff that helps us with literally every aspect of building a book. These years are critical for making a name for yourself in the local community (whether it be church groups, local councils and boards or whatever). My understanding is that around your fourth or fifth year, you are expected to be at least showing some results with your networking efforts from the earlier years. Obviously it's a huge factor when you go up for partnership, so the earlier you can get started on all of this, the better. Remember that part if you go into the private sector, and start making a long-term game plan from day one.

2.) My hours are really reasonable. My requirement is somewhere between 1800 and 1950, and my firm actually means what it says--i.e., 1850 means 1850. Our group is really busy right now (although not this particular minute), and I have averaged about 170 billable during the first two months of this year. Usually this means going into the office at 8 and leaving around 6:30 and eating lunch at my desk. I could go in earlier, but I like to work out in the morning and the partners are fine with me showing up at 8. I also work pretty much every Sunday for 3-8 hours depending on workload. I am in litigation so these hours definitely fluctuate. I have not pulled an all-nighter yet, but there have been plenty of nights where I've stayed until 10 or 11. On the flip side, the partners I work for are really cool about flexibility, so I have been able to work remotely when traveling for weddings, funerals, etc.

3.) As far as impressing senior associates and partners, you definitely need to be sure you get off on the right foot with everyone. A bad initial experience can really hurt you, especially if you are in a smaller practice group. My recommendation is to be really flexible and available to senior associates and partners. Also, ask questions and try to develop a genuine relationship with them--it goes a long way. Whether it's taking two minutes in the morning to ask about the partner's daughter's dance recital or to talk about a college basketball game, being a normal human being and not just a robot low level associate is a good way to distinguish yourself. Finally, you need to be reliable. It's good to be really clear with partners and senior associates about your current work level and deadlines, so you're not tackling assignments that you don't have time to do. If you take too much on and can't complete everything, you end up looking like someone who can't manage his or her own workload. Do this once and it will be really hard to earn that partner's trust again. Relationships + reliability + trust is the formula for success as a young associate.

[Danger Zone]

Any advice for making a good impression over the summer as a 2L? I hope to be you in two years.

[Anonymous User]

What is your stress level like?

Good question, tough to answer. There is always going to be a high amount of stress working as a lawyer, regardless if you're at a V5, NLJ250, or hanging your own shingle. Obviously you're aware of this or you wouldn't have picked law as a profession. With that being said, it is my opinion that the stress level greatly depends on your market and your practice area.

Since I'm in litigation, I find that my stress level is very cyclical. There are less-stressful weeks where I'm only researching and drafting internal memos and there are more-stressful weeks when I'm working on MSJs, emergency motions or productions with unrealistic deadlines. Generally, they even themselves out. My market and my firm handle relatively complex matters (to the extent that we can, being in a secondary market), but I always try and keep things in perspective: we are dealing with large business clients who are usually doing transactions or are being sued for one reason or another; this isn't a PD office doing habeas cases. I believe it's important to remember it's not life or death. And that helps me, as I don't find myself thinking about my clients' problems as I climb into bed at night.**

Your stress level also depends on how you handle stress. I make sure I exercise every day for at least an hour. This really helps me stay relaxed and focused; being in your office all day every day isn't conducive to reducing your stress levels IMO. If you haven't done so in law school, I would definitely recommend finding your own personal best way to vent/relieve stress.

**Some people (other attorneys included) may think I'm a shitty person/attorney for viewing it like this, but being able to watch a TV show/have a conversation with a significant other/do other normal activities without thinking about issues in my cases is important to me. I can always flip on that switch and go into attorney mode when I get called or emailed, but I think being able to put it on the backburner will help me stay sane in the long run.

Hopefully that answered your question.

[09042014]

Any advice for making a good impression over the summer as a 2L? I hope to be you in two years.

Be friendly to everyone.

Don't be weird, aspie, dickish or super immature.

don't complain or try to blame someone else for a mistake.

Don't turn shit in late without telling the person well in advance that you are going to blow the deadline.

Go to every social event that you can realistically make.

Show enthusiasm.

[sublime]

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[Anonymous User]

Any advice for making a good impression over the summer as a 2L? I hope to be you in two years.

Haha, thanks for the compliment. I wish you nothing but luck in the coming years.

Here's what I think about 2L summer: if you've got a 2L SA, the tough part is already out of the way. So congrats. I think you should be yourself, and to the extent that you can (and this is going to sound crazy), approach it like you're an incoming associate.

Be hungry to learn, appreciative of the opportunity, and try and soak up as much as you can.

In this profession, unfortunately, there are plenty of entitled jerks, and it's definitely easy to see that in a summer program. For whatever reason, some people waltz into the 2L SA acting like they are gracing the firm with their presence and that the firm would be lucky to have them as a junior associate. Obviously, the economy has given firms the upper hand, so there is no room to act like an asshole. Being unappreciative and arrogant is the easiest way to negatively distinguish yourself as a summer.

On the flip side, don't go overboard with the bolded advice. Brown-nosed SAs are just as easy to spot. One classmate of mine didn't leave until 6:30 every night during his SA and made it a point to say goodbye to every person on his floor when he left. He looked like a complete ass-kisser and he didn't get an offer because of this.

So this leaves the middle ground, which is what you need to do. Be normal and genuine. You're a 2L SA, and people aren't going to expect you to know how to do anything on your own, so ask questions. Put in good effort and be proud of your work product. Show excitement about opportunities to meet and work with other folks in the firm. Have an open mind about different practice areas. Treat staff members with as much respect, if not more, than other attorneys in the firm. Don't look like an idiot in public, as you will soon represent your firm and its image.

Think of it like this. You're obviously competent enough to do the work, or they wouldn't have hired you. Continue to do what made you successful in law school in order to strengthen their confidence in your abilities. And put yourself in their shoes. They are looking at hiring you for (hopefully) the long-term. That means in one or two or five years, they could be potentially pulling an all-nighter with you working on a brief. Or flying across the country with you to conduct a deposition. Or spending a month of 12-hour days with you at a client's site doing diligence. Think about what characteristics/traits you would value if you were making that kind of decision. And then be sure that your actions wouldn't make you not want to hire yourself.

ETA: DF also has similar and very solid advice above. I would co-sign on all of DF's points

[EijiMiyake]

make sure I exercise every day for at least an hour.

You're a better man than I am. My physical condition has slowly deteriorated over my first year - unfortunately, if my choice is to sleep 5.5 hours and exercise, or sleep 7 hours, I just can't bring myself to choose the former.

[Anonymous User]

How did you end up in your practice area?

What is the best way for a 1L (likely without a 1LSA) to figure out what practice area they would like? Or do firms not expect you to know at OCI?

Thankd for answering questions, btw.

During 1L, you have some really miserable classes and it's likely that you won't find one preference over the other (with the exception maybe being criminal law; hopefully you didn't get a boner for civ pro). So to the extent that OCI employers ask you about your interests in practice areas, you can go one of two ways.

1.) Specify an interest. Only do this if you have the resume to back this up (i.e. you have a masters in health administration and are interested in health care law).

2.) Tell them which classes you preferred over the others, but definitely tell them you're open to trying new things. A good follow up to this question is to ask what kind of system them have in place to get to explore different practice groups, etc.

Personally, I enjoyed litigation and writing classes (nerd alert) much more than business classes, so that is how I knew I wanted to join my litigation-focused practice groups. This was of course during 3L year and during 1L/2L recruiting, I used strategy No. 2 above.

One last thing that is important to remember is that beggars can't be choosers right now, and every law school student is a beggar. Just because a law student thinks he or she wants to do health law/sports law (lol)/M&A work doesn't mean anything to the firm. There are thousands of laterals that can offer much more than entry-level attorneys, experience-wise, and would cost the firm a lot less money with respect to training. I've seen people get no-offered because they were too interested in an area that didn't have a need and the students weren't flexible. This isn't a good strategy unless you're prepared to have no job instead of having one in an area you have little experience in.

[sublime]

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