Why do law schools require you to accept from judge? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Really just curious about this. A lot of schools require that if you get an offer from any state or fed judge, you must accept and stop your search. Why? I don't get the purpose of the "tradition". Why not require us to accept when the AG or ADA gives us an offer? or a V100?

[patogordo]

gee i can't think of any possible reason you might be more worried about pissing off a judge than some random employer

[A. Nony Mouse]

Because judges are important. Duh.

More to the point, flip it around. That tradition exists - what does it tell you about the role judges are perceived to occupy in the legal profession compared to other employers?

It probably came about because judges are (theoretically) highly respected, and hiring by a judge is (usually) more personal than hiring by an AG or V100 - you're turning down an individual, not an institution, so it takes on a much more personal flavor.

But in the end, to the extent the tradition exists, it doesn't make a difference why. (And I say "to the extent" because while I'm sure some judges are sticklers for this, I've never actually seen someone get in trouble for telling a judge no. I would not recommend stringing a judge along, or reneging on a judge, and if you get an offer and are expected to answer on the spot, saying no would be difficult - if you didn't intend to take an offer why interview? But most judges are human beings who will give you some time to answer.)

[Anonymous User]

My school pretty much directly feeds a particular fed courthouse, and one prof said they are doing us a favor by providing so many excellent summer spots. Some judges take as many as 4 or 5 of our students. I know for a fact that the vast majority of interns in the courthouse are from our school even though plenty of students from more highly ranked schools have applied (including ivy's). I guess there is a fear that if anyone from our school turns down one of the judges, it might alienate them and they will stop doing us favors.

I was pretty angry when admin said, essentially, that we couldn't say no to one of the fed judges at this particular courthouse. The admin even alerted us with updates about the hiring process (i.e. when to start submitting, the fact that they have started interviews, last chance, etc.) at the courthouse. It felt like we were being told that the positions were basically charity to our school and you would be an ungrateful prick to say no.

[patogordo]

maybe you should stop taking things so personally

[A. Nony Mouse]

Or just not apply?

[patogordo]

honestly as an intern you provide basically zero value to the judge so it really is a favor to hire you. i don't see what the big deal is.

[hellojd]

Coming to OP's defense here, I don't see the big deal. The judge is an employer. You interview with employers. Employers give you offers. If you no longer desire a particular offer if your circumstances have changed, then you should feel free to decline the offer (this is assuming that you didn't agree before you applied that you would 100% accept the offer if the judge hires you - if OP did this then that's different).

Judges are grown-ups. They shouldn't be offended or take it personally if you politely decline. I don't see the need to be on a high horse here.

[Anonymous User]

anon that responded earlier

I was honestly just trying to answer the question by relaying my experience: at my school, we aren't supposed to say no b/c the judges are doing us favors and you don't look a gift-horse in the mouth.

"don't take it personally" - The bitter tone came from a bad interaction I had with the courthouse and the interview process. "Or just don't apply" - I applied in December before the song and dance guidelines were released from admin. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have.

I don't think it should be a big deal to turn down an offer for an unpaid gig, but the people I had to deal with at this courthouse didn't feel the same way.

[patogordo]

Coming to OP's defense here, I don't see the big deal. The judge is an employer. You interview with employers. Employers give you offers. If you no longer desire a particular offer if your circumstances have changed, then you should feel free to decline the offer (this is assuming that you didn't agree before you applied that you would 100% accept the offer if the judge hires you - if OP did this then that's different).

Judges are grown-ups. They shouldn't be offended or take it personally if you politely decline. I don't see the need to be on a high horse here.

a judge isn't an employer. they're basically letting you observe their chambers for a summer as a favor to you. they're also busy as fuck and maybe they don't want to worry about having to interview replacements if you change your mind.

[exitoptions]

Coming to OP's defense here, I don't see the big deal. The judge is an employer. You interview with employers. Employers give you offers. If you no longer desire a particular offer if your circumstances have changed, then you should feel free to decline the offer (this is assuming that you didn't agree before you applied that you would 100% accept the offer if the judge hires you - if OP did this then that's different).

Judges are grown-ups. They shouldn't be offended or take it personally if you politely decline. I don't see the need to be on a high horse here.

a judge isn't an employer. they're basically letting you observe their chambers for a summer as a favor to you. they're also busy as fuck and maybe they don't want to worry about having to interview replacements if you change your mind.

The judge is an employer to law clerks. Interns create more work for the law clerks. Judges and clerks treat it as a chance to mentor young lawyers, but we certainly don't expect much usable work product. I would estimate that it takes me an additional 30% of the normal time to get a usable draft when an intern is "working" on it. This is why we prefer you to accept the offer -- we don't want to waste even more time to allow people to learn from us.

[patogordo]

see, there you have it. judicial interns are even worse than free.

[Anonymous User]

The school in particular is worried that you will sour the judge on your school's students. That said, I know at least one person who said no to a judge for 1L summer, but it was a county probate judge who was an alum of the local school (with no competing local schools), so how much souring is there really going to be?

With regard to Clerkships, this particular question was asked of a panel of judges at UT (5th Cir., US District, SSC, State App.) and they agreed:
(1) Their interviews are about figuring out if you will be a good fit in their chambers, because by the time you get to the interview you're clearly qualified. In addition, you should be considering if you feel you would enjoy working for the judge. If, after considering it, you conclude that you don't wish to clerk for the judge, please say no. That said, if you come to that conclusion prior to receiving an offer, please withdraw. (They also recognized that if you didn't have any other clerkship offers, you may be reluctant to withdraw prior to an offer).

(2) They don't hold a "No" against the student/future attorney. The clerkship advisor asked about it being held against the school to which they said of course not; they have far better things to do with their clerkship search than to hold petty grudges.

(3) Of course if you're thinking about saying no, then at least tell them you're considering the offer (and if you're waiting for another judge to make a decision or if it's just personal deliberation); don't just not return phone calls for a week.

Obviously clerkships are a different animal than a summer internship, but thought it might be of interest ITT.

[goldeneye]

Really just curious about this. A lot of schools require that if you get an offer from any state or fed judge, you must accept and stop your search. Why? I don't get the purpose of the "tradition". Why not require us to accept when the AG or ADA gives us an offer? or a V100?

Now that you mention it, you can turn down v5 and down. But below that definitely not.

[Robb]

My school pretty much directly feeds a particular fed courthouse, and one prof said they are doing us a favor by providing so many excellent summer spots. Some judges take as many as 4 or 5 of our students. I know for a fact that the vast majority of interns in the courthouse are from our school even though plenty of students from more highly ranked schools have applied (including ivy's). I guess there is a fear that if anyone from our school turns down one of the judges, it might alienate them and they will stop doing us favors.

I was pretty angry when admin said, essentially, that we couldn't say no to one of the fed judges at this particular courthouse. The admin even alerted us with updates about the hiring process (i.e. when to start submitting, the fact that they have started interviews, last chance, etc.) at the courthouse. It felt like we were being told that the positions were basically charity to our school and you would be an ungrateful prick to say no.

As others have said and suggested, this isn't unique to your school. Actually, are you sure that they just restricted the requirement to that particular court? I go to CCN and they tell us that if you're offered a position in a judge's chambers then your search is over, you accept and that's that. So it's not a feeling about charity to your school... Although IMO it is an honor to work with a judge, especially a federal one, so you should feel grateful.

As to why... I mean, why do lawyers say "May it please the court" before making legal arguments? It's not required, it shouldn't affect the court's decision, but every lawyer out there does it. Law is a lot of formalities. I think many of them don't serve purposes except to signal that you know what you're doing and that you're competent enough to figure out what you're supposed to do beforehand. But as others have noted, judges are important- they hold a special role in our society, and they are one of the cornerstones of our profession. When a judge starts talking, you shut up and listen (listen to the oral arguments in Notre Dame v Sebelius for a good laugh). In some ways, these formalities also reinforce the power of judges and of courts. If lawyers talked over judges, they would, and the courts would, lose respect in the public eye. It's a slippery slope argument, I realize, but taken to the extreme, people just stop listening to courts and the legal profession falls apart.

Overall, my advice is suck it up. In law school it might not be much, but the vast majority of people probably never see the inside of a federal courthouse, let alone a judge's chambers or get to actually work with a judge on resolving cases she's hearing. Having that opportunity is pretty darn amazing, and to complain that you have to accept a position with a judge is pretty shortsighted, especially considering that there a people lined up behind you who would accept the position in a heartbeat.

[Anonymous User]

Judges get nothing from interns. Some won't even review multiple applications and insist that a school or schools submit a single candidate to see of it would be a good fit.

In other words, they are doing the student and school a huge solid by agreeing to let a student intern. If an "offer" isn't accepted, there's a chance/probability the judge may completely reconsider taking a student from the school. Because it's a waste of time in the first place.

[dead head]

see, there you have it. judicial interns are even worse than free.

Isn't that pretty much the legal definition of what an intern is, judicial or not? If they're providing real work for which someone else might be paid, they're not interns and should be paid. True internships are supposed to be for the benefit of the student/intern.

[exitoptions]

see, there you have it. judicial interns are even worse than free.

Isn't that pretty much the legal definition of what an intern is, judicial or not? If they're providing real work for which someone else might be paid, they're not interns and should be paid. True internships are supposed to be for the benefit of the student/intern.

No. The legal issue actually revolves around whether an employer is required to pay an employee (i.e. can you have unpaid interns who receive no credit at school). My understanding is that the Judiciary is exempt from FLSA and state labor laws. Also, governments and non-profits are permitted to accept volunteer unpaid "work." For example, some judges hire unpaid clerks who are expected to contribute just as much as a paid clerk.

[unlicensedpotato]

WOW. Was this thread coauthored by the ABA and U.S. News? Y'all are really drinking the kool aid. Judges are just normal human beings doing normal jobs. They have blind spots, they make mistakes. Their words are not handed down from on high. They are literally just filling a role in the system and doing the best they can. Clearly, there are BS results all the time. We shouldn't owe them anything more than the normal courtesy of an employment search.
They aren't doing you a favor by hiring you. Yes, you aren't going to be professionally useful at this point. But you think judges don't benefit from a quid pro quo of taking interns from the local law school? This is the same logic as arguing that law firms don't benefit from 1L SAs because they usually can't bill clients for their work. OF COURSE they get a benefit from locking down competent 1Ls, from getting positive PR when the students go back to campus, for gaining influence with the law schools. OF COURSE the judge gets better clerks (who could help the judge down the line as well), gets election donations (depending on the state), etc. as a result of this. I totally agree with OP. I was shocked and disgusted when I found out law schools (and therefore law students) were forced to bend to this. It is insanely manipulative and egotistical.

[patogordo]

comparing biglaw SA hiring to clerkship hiring is comical. again, get over yourself.

[exitoptions]

WOW. Was this thread coauthored by the ABA and U.S. News? Y'all are really drinking the kool aid. Judges are just normal human beings doing normal jobs. They have blind spots, they make mistakes. Their words are not handed down from on high. They are literally just filling a role in the system and doing the best they can. Clearly, there are BS results all the time. We shouldn't owe them anything more than the normal courtesy of an employment search.
They aren't doing you a favor by hiring you. Yes, you aren't going to be professionally useful at this point. But you think judges don't benefit from a quid pro quo of taking interns from the local law school? This is the same logic as arguing that law firms don't benefit from 1L SAs because they usually can't bill clients for their work. OF COURSE they get a benefit from locking down competent 1Ls, from getting positive PR when the students go back to campus, for gaining influence with the law schools. OF COURSE the judge gets better clerks (who could help the judge down the line as well), gets election donations (depending on the state), etc. as a result of this. I totally agree with OP. I was shocked and disgusted when I found out law schools (and therefore law students) were forced to bend to this. It is insanely manipulative and egotistical.

This makes no sense. Do you understand the competition for clerkships? It's nothing like firm recruitment. We get hundreds, maybe thousands, of stellar applications from around the country for each opening. We generally make a single offer for a position and it is accepted on the spot. Judges are not worried that not accepting interns will hurt their reputations with the local schools. (Again, this is a competitive district.)

If you don't like the system, just don't apply to work for a federal judge. Making your school look bad to judges isn't going to help change things.

[unlicensedpotato]

This makes no sense. Do you understand the competition for clerkships? It's nothing like firm recruitment. We get hundreds, maybe thousands, of stellar applications from around the country for each opening. We generally make a single offer for a position and it is accepted on the spot. Judges are not worried that not accepting interns will hurt their reputations with the local schools. (Again, this is a competitive district.)

If you don't like the system, just don't apply to work for a federal judge. Making your school look bad to judges isn't going to help change things.

If you have so many stellar applicants, then when someone turns you down you can just ask the person who was your second choice. Like, oh, I don't know, every single other employer in the world does. The insanity of your logic is clear when you imply that just by rejecting a job offer, you will make the school look bad to judges. I think that says more about judicial narcissism than I ever could.

[A. Nony Mouse]

Look, it's just a convention, based on the fact that judges occupy a unique position in our legal system and that hiring by a judge is a much more personal/individual kind of thing than hiring by an institutional employer (you are getting hired by the judge, personally, not by the court as an institution). Schools enforce the "don't say no to a judge" rule far more than any judge I've ever encountered. And there are lots of random conventions about employment - I'm not sure why people are so bent out of shape about this one.

[encore1101]

Look, it's just a convention, based on the fact that judges occupy a unique position in our legal system and that hiring by a judge is a much more personal/individual kind of thing than hiring by an institutional employer (you are getting hired by the judge, personally, not by the court as an institution). Schools enforce the "don't say no to a judge" rule far more than any judge I've ever encountered. And there are lots of random conventions about employment - I'm not sure why people are so bent out of shape about this one.

You are quickly becoming my favorite poster on TLS forums

[dead head]

Schools enforce the "don't say no to a judge" rule far more than any judge I've ever encountered. And there are lots of random conventions about employment - I'm not sure why people are so bent out of shape about this one.

Well, I think there are a couple of reasons about getting bent out of shape. For one, the student's priority should not be in protecting the school's reputation, and given the typically low levels of actual assistance that Career Services offices typically provide, it seems that there's not much quo in this quid pro quo. For two, it can be very expensive for students to attend interviews with judges, and it's not fun to have shelled out a lot on airfare only to hear that your judge filled the position the day before you're scheduled to fly out to meet her.