What is considered an unusually high no-offer rate? Forum

[Anonymous User]

...for a V50 with a summer class of, say, 30+?

2L here. The firm (in a secondary market) that just gave me an offer has a 2L summer offer-rate in the low 80%'s. I know this is lower than the 90% average nationwide (as commonly reported), but is this cause for concern? I am dead-set on this firm otherwise, but should I weigh this against them if I get another offer?

[Tiago Splitter]

should I weigh this against them if I get another offer?

Absolutely. There are plenty of vault firms with 100% offer rates (or very close to it). If this firm is consistently around 80% or worse it means they don't intend to offer all of their summers. Seems like a bad idea.

[Anonymous User]

OP again. Might be a dumb question, but how do I check their no-offer rates for summers prior to last summer on NALP?

[AllTheLawz]

You really want a place with 90%+ but 25 or 26 offered out of 30 isn't shockingly bad. My SA firm offered 100% (~50/50) but would have been completely justified no-offering at least 2 or 3 from what I hear/observed.

[Anonymous User]

You really want a place with 90%+ but 25 or 26 offered out of 30 isn't shockingly bad. My SA firm offered 100% (~50/50) but would have been completely justified no-offering at least 2 or 3 from what I hear/observed.

Then again, if those SAs knew it wasn't a 100% offer rate, they may have behaved differently. In my experience at a firm with a high no offer rate, the SAs all worked very hard to impress. Its natural - we're fighting to survive.

[Anonymous User]

OP, find out which departments those SAs were no offered. Try to call/email or meet up with somebody at your school who summered there to find out the true story (or at least what they have heard). Find as much as possible. Maybe even ask HR (but expect a scripted answer...). If possible, maybe even reach out to those who were no offered to get their take.

Do your research.

But also try to get another offer.

[rad lulz]

OP, find out which departments those SAs were no offered. Try to call/email or meet up with somebody at your school who summered there to find out the true story (or at least what they have heard). Find as much as possible. Maybe even ask HR (but expect a scripted answer...). If possible, maybe even reach out to those who were no offered to get their take.

Do your research.

But also try to get another offer.

I'd suggest not reaching out to the people who got no offered. That's a pretty crass move

[Anonymous User]

Firm with 99% offer rate, but only no-offer in 2012 was in the smallish office I want. I don't think anyone at my school went to the firm. Thoughts?

The firm is highly-ranked, with strong revenues, profits, VPL, etc. There were a few layoffs in 2008/9 (unclear if these were true layoffs or just brutal use of up-or-out policies) but none since, although there were a brutal number of no-offers in 2009. The office numbers have generally held steady since, with some fluctuations in the SA class size that seem to correlate with anticipated clerk and lateral hires. The office does not allow second-halfers, so the "demotivated splitter" explanation doesn't work. Does this sound like an office that expects to no-offer people, or just an unusual occurrence?

[Anonymous User]

This. Same situation -- have no idea whether it was about the particular SA or because that office decided they only needed 1 of the 2.

[badaboom61]

Firm with 99% offer rate, but only no-offer in 2012 was in the smallish office I want. I don't think anyone at my school went to the firm. Thoughts?

The firm is highly-ranked, with strong revenues, profits, VPL, etc. There were a few layoffs in 2008/9 (unclear if these were true layoffs or just brutal use of up-or-out policies) but none since, although there were a brutal number of no-offers in 2009. The office numbers have generally held steady since, with some fluctuations in the SA class size that seem to correlate with anticipated clerk and lateral hires. The office does not allow second-halfers, so the "demotivated splitter" explanation doesn't work. Does this sound like an office that expects to no-offer people, or just an unusual occurrence?

One or two no-offers nationwide is not a red flag; firms sometime hire people that do something incredibly stupid or somehow rub the wrong partner in the wrong way. These are random, year-specific occurrences.

It's when the firm consistently no-offers a non-negligible portion of their class (for instance, the big Texas firms consistently have 10-20% no offer rates) that you should be worried, because the firm basically hires a class knowing that not all of them will be coming back. Instead, look for firms that intend for all their summers to come back but for some highly unusual and unlikely event, which is usually (granted, not always) at least partially the summer's fault. If you have a choice, take the firm with the higher offer rate every time.

Then again, if those SAs knew it wasn't a 100% offer rate, they may have behaved differently. In my experience at a firm with a high no offer rate, the SAs all worked very hard to impress. Its natural - we're fighting to survive.

This sounds like a terrible experience. Avoid firms like this if you have any other choice. I would go so far as posit that at firms with sufficiently low offer rates (I've heard of firms in smaller markets that have like 25-30% offer rates), it would actually be better to work in PI/govt your 2L summer than to risk a very-likely no-offer and have to deal with the stigma of it.

[Anonymous User]

Firm with 99% offer rate, but only no-offer in 2012 was in the smallish office I want. I don't think anyone at my school went to the firm. Thoughts?

The firm is highly-ranked, with strong revenues, profits, VPL, etc. There were a few layoffs in 2008/9 (unclear if these were true layoffs or just brutal use of up-or-out policies) but none since, although there were a brutal number of no-offers in 2009. The office numbers have generally held steady since, with some fluctuations in the SA class size that seem to correlate with anticipated clerk and lateral hires. The office does not allow second-halfers, so the "demotivated splitter" explanation doesn't work. Does this sound like an office that expects to no-offer people, or just an unusual occurrence?

One or two no-offers nationwide is not a red flag; firms sometime hire people that do something incredibly stupid or somehow rub the wrong partner in the wrong way. These are random, year-specific occurrences.

It's when the firm consistently no-offers a non-negligible portion of their class (for instance, the big Texas firms consistently have 10-20% no offer rates) that you should be worried, because the firm basically hires a class knowing that not all of them will be coming back. Instead, look for firms that intend for all their summers to come back but for some highly unusual and unlikely event, which is usually (granted, not always) at least partially the summer's fault. If you have a choice, take the firm with the higher offer rate every time.

Thanks. I would reach out to former SAs at my school, but for some reason this huge firm didn't have any (in any offices) last year.

[Anonymous User]

OP again. Yes, this is a Texas firm. I guess the no-offer rates in TX may be slightly higher because having split summers allow both the firms and the SAs to be a little pickier. Problem is: I'm still looking for that second offer for the second half of the summer.

Regardless of other offers, I think I'm gonna accept this one and roll the dice. 85% chance isn't bad odds, and everything else feels right.

I also want to bump a question I raised earlier: how do I check offer rates for summers prior to 2012, whether or NALP or elsewhere?

[Anonymous User]

OP again. Yes, this is a Texas firm. I guess the no-offer rates in TX may be slightly higher because having split summers allow both the firms and the SAs to be a little pickier. Problem is: I'm still looking for that second offer for the second half of the summer.

Regardless of other offers, I think I'm gonna accept this offer and roll the dice. 85% chance isn't bad odds, and everything else feels right.

I also want to bump a question I raised earlier: how do I check offer rates for summers prior to 2012, whether or NALP or elsewhere?

Good luck! I'm not sure whether past NALP forms are available online, but you may be able to get them from the recruitment staff.

[badaboom61]

OP again. Yes, this is a Texas firm. I guess the no-offer rates in TX may be slightly higher because having split summers allow both the firms and the SAs to be a little pickier. Problem is: I'm still looking for that second offer for the second half of the summer.

Regardless of other offers, I think I'm gonna accept this one and roll the dice. 85% chance isn't bad odds, and everything else feels right.

I also want to bump a question I raised earlier: how do I check offer rates for summers prior to 2012, whether or NALP or elsewhere?

Personally I would not "roll the dice" in a situation like this if you have an offer with a higher offer rate firm, but obviously your call. Consider that some people who get no offered do not recover and never end up finding legal employment. I have no idea why anyone would want to willingly increase the chance of a no-offer from <1% to 15%, even if they like the firm / market better or if things "feel right." After you get a full time offer, you can think about 3L OCI (much easier with an offer in hand) or lateraling later, but I would much rather have a 100% shot at employment than an 85% chance at my dream firm.

Also, your CSO should have hard copies of NALP directories from prior years.

[thegrayman]

85% offer rate is willfully subjecting yourself to an insane level of stress over summer. Just make sure you're okay with that. My opinion is that you should go with a higher offer rate assuming you have other comparable options.

You WILL fuck something up over summer, period. From that point on, that 85% figure won't seem as warm and fluffy as it did before.

[Anonymous User]

OP again. Outside of mass-mailing, my odds of getting another first-half offer are nil. This 85% firm was the only first-half offer that I got through OCI, so I'm not waiting on anyone else. I figure that since I had established such great rapport with them over the last few weeks, I did not want to make them wait 30 days while I await the results of mass mail.

My goal now is to land a second-half offer. Still waiting on one CB and I'm mass mailing.

My willingness to roll the dice is predicated on the fact of having bad grades from a T20 (it was a minor miracle that I even got one offer). I am in no place to choose when firms aren't exactly trying to bust down my door. That said, I'm still hauling ass to land that second-half offer.

[los blancos]

85% offer rate is willfully subjecting yourself to an insane level of stress over summer. Just make sure you're okay with that. My opinion is that you should go with a higher offer rate assuming you have other comparable options.

You WILL fuck something up over summer, period. From that point on, that 85% figure won't seem as warm and fluffy as it did before.

Pretty much this. You'd normally be concerned with no-offer rates for two reasons:
(1) Getting no-offered is very very bad for you
(2) Even if you get the offer, a firm with a low offer rate generally may not be in the best shape financially or may be having trouble bringing in business

But particularly regarding (2) it's all relative, of course. And from what I'm seeing ITT it doesn't seem like you need to be concerned with that since it's apparently the norm in TX.

That said, it'll definitely make the experience a lot less fun. I did my SA at a regional firm that no-offered 2 of the 4 SAs the year before me. When I asked why, they said it was fit with one individual and work product with the other. This, even though they had consistently had relatively high rates in previous years and insisted they planned on hiring everyone they brought aboard. They brought on only 3 SAs my year and I believe just 2 this past summer and they hired everyone. (and I actually stumbled upon a linkedIN of one of the no-offers from the year before mine, and I could totally understand why no one would want him - I just couldn't figure out how he got the SA to begin with).

Long story short: it worked out for me (and perhaps motivated me, because my work product that summer was stellar if they were telling me the truth), but it definitely made the experience very stressful. It probably won't be as bad in a place with a consistent 85% rate, but just know this is something you'll have to deal with and take it in stride.

My willingness to roll the dice is predicated on the fact of having bad grades from a T20 (it was a minor miracle that I even got one offer). I am in no place to choose when firms aren't exactly trying to bust down my door. That said, I'm still hauling ass to land that second-half offer.

I think this is pretty much the right approach, and as long as you keep this attitude you'll probably be fine in the end.

My advice to anyone going to a firm that doesn't consistently do 100% offer rates (and ITE perhaps even those going to firms with 100% rates) is this: sometimes an opportunity will present itself to get on the good side of a really influential partner. If that happens, do whatever it takes to really impress her/him.

I had a partner e-mail me an assignment at 6pm one day just as I was about to walk out the door. The e-mail didn't have a due date. Normally this isn't an issue, but the facts here were open-ended in that our client could do something damaging to her interest if I sat on the assignment for more than a day or two. By the time I got to the partner's office she was gone for the night. So I went home, had dinner with my wife, and worked until 1am that night on my dining table. A completed memo was on influential partner's desk at 9am, which she immediately passed on to the client. In the end this wasn't the reason I got offered, but I did know at that point that I had someone that would go to bat for me if I was borderline, and that was comforting.

TL;DR - try to do something that shows dedication without being over the top or aspie.

[delusional]

My feeling was that anything more than one no-offer was a huge red flag, and even one each year is a bit disconcerting. If a firm no offered 2+ in one year, then I would want to see a few consecutive years without any no-offers to balance that out.

Also, the thing about doing something really crazy and knowing in advance it isn't going to work out is (a) small consolation for your life being dramatically changed over a period of weeks, after years of hard work, and (b) is also largely untrue, from what I can gather. I know a couple classmates who were no offered and it was pure chance - they rubbed the wrong partner wrong a few days before the final reviews, or the firm was looking to cut back on their incoming class and chose a scapegoat. Even the firm I worked at, which offered everyone this summer and most years, no offered someone a couple years back for simply pissing off five or six people in a pretty pervasive way. That's not to say they were wrong, it's just to say that you needn't be a drunken retard to get no-offered and given the consequences of a no-offer it's logical to choose a place that actively eschews no-offering over one that does it to a small percentage regularly.