most laid back firm of V10, V20 Forum

[KaNa1986]

I realize associates at all V20's work hard. Which is the most laid-back firm in the V10, what about V20?

[thesealocust]

Other questions worthy of pondering:

What's the saltiest brand of sugar?

Which motorcycle is the safest?

What country on the equator has the harshest winters?

Which rock concert has the quietest sound system?

[JamesDean1955]

Other questions worthy of pondering:

What's the saltiest brand of sugar?

Which motorcycle is the safest?

What country on the equator has the harshest winters?

Which rock concert has the quietest sound system?

[juzam_djinn]

I realize associates at all V20's work hard. Which is the most laid-back firm in the V10, what about V20?

skadden

[IAFG]

If this is important to you at all, go back in time, don't attend law school, become a ski instructor, obtain profits.

[KaNa1986]

.

[Agent]

HTH:

• Avery Index (dated, but see the Law Firm Rankings section)
• Am Law's Associates Survey
• Above the Law's Firm Directory (click ratings grid to expand to seven categories)

[walkingpanda]

Seriously, I'm sure there's a difference between the firms (e.g. Sidney Austin and Quinn Emanuel, STB and Cravath)

You might want to stop.

[JamesDean1955]

Seriously, I'm sure there's a difference between the firms (e.g. Sidney Austin and Quinn Emanuel, STB and Cravath)

No one working biglaw has it "laid back." I realize you are asking about relative differences, but that is like asking which brand of motorcycle is the safest as thesealocust put it. They're all tough, and the answer depends on so many different variables (for instance, associates in one type of practice group might have certain aspects easier (e.g. better hours), but even then they may have it worse it other ways).

There are simply too many variables, and the differences are not significant enough, to give any sort of meaningful answer to this question, like there would be to the biglaw vs. midlaw lifestyle questions.

Also, there is the subjectivity factor to boot - people will give you different answers based on their personal experiences and the perceptions they've developed as a result.

I mean, I can understand if you were a female and expecting to have a child sometime during your biglaw career, and asked "which firms have the best maternity leave policies" or something more specific like that.

ETA: And yeah, if this is what you are thinking/concerned about, you shouldn't even be considering biglaw.

[JamMasterJ]

ones not in NY

[stratocophic]

I realize associates at all V20's work hard. Which is the most laid-back firm in the V10, what about V20?

[thesealocust]

To put a finer point on it: The "best" and "most prestigious" big law firms are populated by olympic-class obsessive, type-A, high-strung, high-achieving personalities. Their clients hire them for bet the company litigation, headline-making corporate transactions, and highly sensitive advice or advocacy on matters of existential significance to the business.

Maybe your odds of getting a stapler thrown at you are higher at some places than others, and maybe that's relevant... but it's at the margins.

To be a little sincere, and reach for the low hanging fruit of stereotypes: S&C has notorious cultural problems (which may or may not be exaggerated). DPW is known for being passive aggressive. Cravath is... Cravath is pretty much an adjective unto itself. Nobody at Wachtell does anything except work at Wachtell. Skadden is known for being gigantic (its NYC office is the biggest law office in the world, so far as I know) and kind of bro-y. Kirkland's "free market" culture can get people wound up. Quinn is supposed to be a sweatshop. Cleary is quirky and international... but I don't think either of those translate into laid back?

I mean who knows... I've met really great, kind, courteous lawyers at every firm listed above. But even the good eggs aren't what I would describe as laid back.

[Anonymous User]

Seriously, I'm sure there's a difference between the firms (e.g. Sidney Austin and Quinn Emanuel, STB and Cravath)

Your assurance is incorrect.

whups didn't mean to be anon this is jd20132013

[Cavalier]

It's also worth pointing out that how "laid back" work is depends a lot on which practice group you end up in. Within every firm, some partners are very demanding, and others are more relaxed. But don't expect any big law firm in a primary market to be laid back.

[Tanicius]

You guys are being a bit jerkish here. Harping on how high-stakes the work is doesn't mean an office can't be laid back. I have a lot of friends who work in Skadden and Latham in LA, and while of course it's biglaw and of course they work hard, they're also pretty laid-back people compared to a lot of my classmates.

The true answer for the OP isn't that they should shut up and not ask this question or get out of law school. The true answer is that they extend their search beyond the V20 and focus on quality of life, which is *definitely* different depending on what firm and office you go to. Quinn is truly gnarly in comparison to most firms that have offices on the West Coast, for example, requiring hundreds more in billable hours than other firms, and if that kind of culture is bad for you then I would highly recommend not going there.

[Agent]

+1

You guys are being a bit jerkish here. Harping on how high-stakes the work is doesn't mean an office can't be laid back. I have a lot of friends who work in Skadden and Latham in LA, and while of course it's biglaw and of course they work hard, they're also pretty laid-back people compared to a lot of my classmates.

The true answer for the OP isn't that they should shut up and not ask this question or get out of law school. The true answer is that they extend their search beyond the V20 and focus on quality of life, which is *definitely* different depending on what firm and office you go to. Quinn is truly gnarly in comparison to most firms that have offices on the West Coast, for example, requiring hundreds more in billable hours than other firms, and if that kind of culture is bad for you then I would highly recommend not going there.

[JamMasterJ]

To put a finer point on it: The "best" and "most prestigious" big law firms are populated by olympic-class obsessive, type-A, high-strung, high-achieving personalities. Their clients hire them for bet the company litigation, headline-making corporate transactions, and highly sensitive advice or advocacy on matters of existential significance to the business.

Maybe your odds of getting a stapler thrown at you are higher at some places than others, and maybe that's relevant... but it's at the margins.

To be a little sincere, and reach for the low hanging fruit of stereotypes: S&C has notorious cultural problems (which may or may not be exaggerated). DPW is known for being passive aggressive. Cravath is... Cravath is pretty much an adjective unto itself. Nobody at Wachtell does anything except work at Wachtell. Skadden is known for being gigantic (its NYC office is the biggest law office in the world, so far as I know) and kind of bro-y. Kirkland's "free market" culture can get people wound up. Quinn is supposed to be a sweatshop. Cleary is quirky and international... but I don't think either of those translate into laid back?

I mean who knows... I've met really great, kind, courteous lawyers at every firm listed above. But even the good eggs aren't what I would describe as laid back.

Yeah, a guy at Cleary spoke to our lawyering (legal writing) class and basically said that although people are generally pretty nice and interesting, that means NOTHING as far as being less work than elsewhere. Corroborated by the information I got at our mixer with their attorneys

[JamMasterJ]

You guys are being a bit jerkish here. Harping on how high-stakes the work is doesn't mean an office can't be laid back. I have a lot of friends who work in Skadden and Latham in LA, and while of course it's biglaw and of course they work hard, they're also pretty laid-back people compared to a lot of my classmates.

The true answer for the OP isn't that they should shut up and not ask this question or get out of law school. The true answer is that they extend their search beyond the V20 and focus on quality of life, which is *definitely* different depending on what firm and office you go to. Quinn is truly gnarly in comparison to most firms that have offices on the West Coast, for example, requiring hundreds more in billable hours than other firms, and if that kind of culture is bad for you then I would highly recommend not going there.

I don't think it's jerkish, I think OP just sorta miss-asked his question. People are responding to the workload question, rather than the personality question. The answer to the former is that it's rough at all V20s, especially in NY offices, and that the culture at the other V20s is generally pretty similar across the board, just leaning slightly one way or the other.

It's not like comparing UVA and CLS - the differences are far less apparent, and even in comparing law school cultures, you're still tending to compare the margins.

[Anonymous User]

IMO in the V10 it's Cleary, but for full disclosure I picked a different place to work. Most people I know there seem to really like it though.

[Anonymous User]

HTH:

• Avery Index (dated, but see the Law Firm Rankings section)
• Am Law's Associates Survey
• Above the Law's Firm Directory (click ratings grid to expand to seven categories)

Despite the datedness of the first link, I always found it interesting to compare the "best" and "worst." I think this link is most pertinent to OP's question if just for the sake of the hypothetical, we assume OP to mean "hours," and we limit the discussion to New York.

Note that outside of the *very* top (Cravath, Wachtell) having 5-10 more hours than everyone else, it seems like NY V100s/market-paying NY firms, from "worst" to "best" at most have variations of like 6-7 hours. Comparing Weil to Curtis-Mallet, for example, shows a 6 hour weekly difference. Notable, I guess, but significant?

This seems to validate what other people are saying, then, that the difference between "firms" on the whole is negligible (unless you're talking about different markets, but I'm limiting my discussion to NY), and it's more about other factors that play into quality of life, such as work environment and what group you're in.

- Full Disclosure: 2L

[Blindmelon]

Its practice area/location, not really firm. 1) Don't work in NYC; 2) Do work in tax or regulatory. Do not go into corporate (unpredictable hours) or lit (constantly chugging hours).

[ph14]

Its practice area/location, not really firm. 1) Don't work in NYC; 2) Do work in tax or regulatory. Do not go into corporate (unpredictable hours) or lit (constantly chugging hours).

It's probably more partner specific than anything.

[Anonymous User]

Within the V20, Jones Day seems to have a pretty solid work-live balance (only if measured on a BigLaw scale, of course). People were almost all gone from the office by 7:30 (unsure how much remote work happened from home later) etc. And they explicitly disclaim tying compensation to billable hours. The expectation is still somewhere in the 1900 to 2000 range (200 of which can be pro bono), but there isn't a lot of pressure to be hitting the higher numbers. HTH.

[Anonymous User]

Within the V20, Jones Day seems to have a pretty solid work-live balance (only if measured on a BigLaw scale, of course). People were almost all gone from the office by 7:30 (unsure how much remote work happened from home later) etc. And they explicitly disclaim tying compensation to billable hours. The expectation is still somewhere in the 1900 to 2000 range (200 of which can be pro bono), but there isn't a lot of pressure to be hitting the higher numbers. HTH.

fwiw I have heard the exact opposite about Jones Day (s, Nights, and Weekends)

[stratocophic]

Within the V20, Jones Day seems to have a pretty solid work-live balance (only if measured on a BigLaw scale, of course). People were almost all gone from the office by 7:30 (unsure how much remote work happened from home later) etc. And they explicitly disclaim tying compensation to billable hours. The expectation is still somewhere in the 1900 to 2000 range (200 of which can be pro bono), but there isn't a lot of pressure to be hitting the higher numbers. HTH.

fwiw I have heard the exact opposite about Jones Day (s, Nights, and Weekends)

TITCJDNAW

Different offices have different personalities tho - you've got to get a feel for what an office is really like during your callback, because firm reps aren't going to hold up when a firm's acquired an IP boutique or a local firm in order to have a presence in a particular city