Above Median @ T6 - What Firms Should I be Thinking About? Forum

[Anonymous User]

I have applied to a 1L Associate Position at a V30 that carries with it a sort of gentleman's agreement that I will return to the firm for 2L and then start my career there. If I am offered the position, should I take it (bird in hand is better than two in the bush), or should I be aiming for a more prestigious firm? Do above median students at T6 schools traditionally do far better than V30, or would that be a sensible final destination for someone in my position anyway?

[Anonymous User]

deleted

[Anonymous User]

I have applied to a 1L Associate Position at a V30 that carries with it a sort of gentleman's agreement that I will return to the firm for 2L and then start my career there. If I am offered the position, should I take it (bird in hand is better than two in the bush), or should I be aiming for a more prestigious firm? Do above median students at T6 schools traditionally do far better than V30, or would that be a sensible final destination for someone in my position anyway?

1. MoFo?
2. Did you interview? If not, your question is very premature.

[dingbat]

you're median, not top 1/4. V30 is a good outcome

[bdubs]

V30 is meaningless unless you're focused strictly on transactional work in NYC.

[thesealocust]

If you're looking to NYC firms, you should generally be thinking about well regarded vault ranked firms. Few would be categorically impossible, but it's not a straight shooting match - firms have different specialties, and Vault largely collapses into "a ranking of the best M&A practices in NYC plus what M&A lawyers in NYC think about other firms."

[Anonymous User]

I have applied to a 1L Associate Position at a V30 that carries with it a sort of gentleman's agreement that I will return to the firm for 2L and then start my career there. If I am offered the position, should I take it (bird in hand is better than two in the bush), or should I be aiming for a more prestigious firm? Do above median students at T6 schools traditionally do far better than V30, or would that be a sensible final destination for someone in my position anyway?

1. MoFo?
2. Did you interview? If not, your question is very premature.

op here. What's MoFo?

[Anonymous User]

V30 is meaningless unless you're focused strictly on transactional work in NYC.

op here. I don't know what this is supposed to tell me - are you criticizing the vault rankings or are you saying my working at a V30 would be meaningless?

[soccerfreak]

I have applied to a 1L Associate Position at a V30 that carries with it a sort of gentleman's agreement that I will return to the firm for 2L and then start my career there.

In other words...a 1L summer associate position. If you get the offer, then yes of course you can take it. You can always trade up later if you really want to. And I don't think a "V30" is so un-prestigious that anyone would refuse to work there simply because of the devastating hit to their reputation...almost makes me think this is a flame and not just humble-bragging.

[TaipeiMort]

If you're looking to NYC firms, you should generally be thinking about well regarded vault ranked firms. Few would be categorically impossible, but it's not a straight shooting match - firms have different specialties, and Vault largely collapses into "a ranking of the best M&A practices in NYC plus what M&A lawyers in NYC think about other firms."

Exactly this. Some of the best transactional shops in California are V30-70 ranked, while the satellite offices of their V15 peers do not have as sophisticated of practices/bottomfeed the client pool. Also, if you are interested in private, emerging growth, tech transactions, or capital markets work the rankings are way different. Also, litigation does not match up at all to vault rankings.

Finally, there is no such thing as a "gentleman's agreement" in all of this-- don't delude yourself. The firm will no-offer you at the drop of a hat if necessary, you should be prepared to trade up when given the appropriate opportunity.

[TaipeiMort]

V30 is meaningless unless you're focused strictly on transactional work in NYC.

op here. I don't know what this is supposed to tell me - are you criticizing the vault rankings or are you saying my working at a V30 would be meaningless?

The vault rankings really are the "NYC M&A practice" rankings, and do not really line up with reality (prestige, exit options, quality of clients, quality of work) in most practice areas or locations.

[Anonymous User]

I have applied to a 1L Associate Position at a V30 that carries with it a sort of gentleman's agreement that I will return to the firm for 2L and then start my career there.

In other words...a 1L summer associate position. If you get the offer, then yes of course you can take it. You can always trade up later if you really want to. And I don't think a "V30" is so un-prestigious that anyone would refuse to work there simply because of the devastating hit to their reputation...almost makes me think this is a flame and not just humble-bragging.

Humble bragging that I applied for a job? Hardly.

It's not a normal 1L Associate Position. They make the expectation very clear, so taking it and "trading up" for 2L would be bad faith and would look very bad. The concern is not my reputation, it is that I only get one shot at OCI, and if I sell myself short now I can't go back and try again.

I'm hoping for advice on what sort of outcome is common for median students at T6. I don't have any special work experience for whatever that is worth.

[bdubs]

V30 is meaningless unless you're focused strictly on transactional work in NYC.

op here. I don't know what this is supposed to tell me - are you criticizing the vault rankings or are you saying my working at a V30 would be meaningless?

Not so much criticism of the rankings but of your use of them (i.e. broadly to define quality). If you're at Chicago and looking at a Chicago V30 (e.g. Mayer Brown), then you are really looking at one of the top firms in the local market. Whereas if you want to do M&A in NYC, a V30 (e.g. Cadwalader) isn't going to get you super awesome experience on big, high profile deals.

PS - I have never heard of a firm doing this, it seems strange.

[Anonymous User]

V30 is meaningless unless you're focused strictly on transactional work in NYC.

op here. I don't know what this is supposed to tell me - are you criticizing the vault rankings or are you saying my working at a V30 would be meaningless?

The vault rankings really are the "NYC M&A practice" rankings, and do not really line up with reality (prestige, exit options, quality of clients, quality of work) in most practice areas or locations.

Okay, this is good to know, thanks.

[Anonymous User]

PS - I have never heard of a firm doing this, it seems strange.

It's the Akin Gump Pro Bono Scholars program.

[soccerfreak]

I have applied to a 1L Associate Position at a V30 that carries with it a sort of gentleman's agreement that I will return to the firm for 2L and then start my career there.

In other words...a 1L summer associate position. If you get the offer, then yes of course you can take it. You can always trade up later if you really want to. And I don't think a "V30" is so un-prestigious that anyone would refuse to work there simply because of the devastating hit to their reputation...almost makes me think this is a flame and not just humble-bragging.

Humble bragging that I applied for a job? Hardly.

It's not a normal 1L Associate Position. They make the expectation very clear, so taking it and "trading up" for 2L would be bad faith and would look very bad. The concern is not my reputation, it is that I only get one shot at OCI, and if I sell myself short now I can't go back and try again.

I'm hoping for advice on what sort of outcome is common for median students at T6. I don't have any special work experience for whatever that is worth.

Okay, then my advice would really hinge on this commitment, rather than the ranking of the firm.

If it is your only offer, it wouldn't be a bad idea to take it. However, if you get multiple offers I would probably lean towards taking a different one...if you happen to hate the firm, you want the flexibility to move on. Heck, that's one of the biggest benefits of getting anything 1L in the first place.

[bdubs]

PS - I have never heard of a firm doing this, it seems strange.

It's the Akin Gump Pro Bono Scholars program.

Yeah, that's not really a 1L SA. I would feel bad about taking their money to work for a PI org and running too.

Are you attracted by the PI part, or is it really about securing a 2L summer spot as a 1L that appeals to you?

[somewhatwayward]

you're median, not top 1/4. V30 is a good outcome

Assuming you are like top 40-45%, pretty much no Vault firms are out for you except Wachtell, Williams & Connolly, SullCrom (3.6 cutoff, generally), and Cravath (if you do mean top 40%....if you're at top 30%, you could get Cravath). Perhaps dingbat means that there is some risk that you could get no offer from OCI, which is a possibility for everyone, I suppose. But medianish does not keep you from getting V5 firms, let alone most V20 firms. For example, for c/o 2012, around half the large number of offers Davis Polk and Skadden gave at CLS were to non-Stone people (Stone is top 30%). If you are a good interviewer and top 40% at CLS, I feel pretty confident that you would get at least one V20 offer, and you would have a good shot at getting a V10. Be realistic about how good of an interviewer you are and really take the time to prepare. You also have another semester to push your grades up, upping your chances.

Are you a URM? I ask because V30s don't give many interviews to non-URMs with top 40% grades. If you are a URM and you keep up your grades, you will have more options next year definitely. That doesn't mean that Skadden is definitely better than your V30. But if you are wondering whether you have a shot at higher-ranked V firms next year, the answer is yes. You know that usually if you go to a V30 for your 1L summer, get an offer to return to the V30, then re-interview and get an offer from a V10, typically the V30 will let you spend the majority of the summer at the V10 but ask you to come back to the V30 for a few weeks so they get another opportunity to recruit you? You aren't married to the V30 just because you spent your 1L summer with them.

[Anonymous User]

Are you attracted by the PI part, or is it really about securing a 2L summer spot as a 1L that appeals to you?

It's very much both.

[bdubs]

Are you attracted by the PI part, or is it really about securing a 2L summer spot as a 1L that appeals to you?

It's very much both.

I would take it if you get the offer then. You can always do 2L OCI and try to get a split worked out.

[KidStuddi]

If you're looking to NYC firms, you should generally be thinking about well regarded vault ranked firms. Few would be categorically impossible, but it's not a straight shooting match - firms have different specialties, and Vault largely collapses into "a ranking of the best M&A practices in NYC plus what M&A lawyers in NYC think about other firms."

Exactly this. Some of the best transactional shops in California are V30-70 ranked, while the satellite offices of their V15 peers do not have as sophisticated of practices/bottomfeed the client pool. Also, if you are interested in private, emerging growth, tech transactions, or capital markets work the rankings are way different. Also, litigation does not match up at all to vault rankings.

I can't believe I'm about to defend Vault rankings, but I think you've gone too far with the anti-Vault indoctrination.

Care to give examples of V15s "bottom feeding?" Correct me if you have data to the contrary, but I've been told by multiple firms that they very rarely vary their rates for work done at different domestic offices. If they did, all of their clients would just demand their work be done on the cheap at a different office. If these satellite offices are out there bottom feeding, they're being well paid to do it.

This whole "Vault is biased towards NYC" narrative has gotten so far out of hand. Complaining about the rankings being skewed towards NYC is like pointing out that rankings of lobbying firms are skewed towards Washington, D.C., as if any skew is inherently bad or misleading. It isn't; unless you're kind of dumb. It's where the vast majority of the money and work is.

The vault rankings really are the "NYC M&A practice" rankings, and do not really line up with reality (prestige, exit options, quality of clients, quality of work) in most practice areas or locations.

This sounds as spurious as saying USNews rankings do not line up with reality because of specialty rankings and regional placement numbers. I called several legal recruiting firms (head hunters) before making my decision and they all told me that Vault rankings are a very strong indicator of how much interest they'll be able to gin up for an ex-associate looking for work, and the hypothetical I posed did not involve transactional work nor am I in NYC.

When people have very specific goals in mind or have their choice narrowed down to a handful of similar firms, I'll be the first to say that reliance on Vault is pretty stupid as there are better ways to make the decision. But for a 1L who has expressed no affinity for a practice area or geographic location and wants a general sense of the nationwide hierarchy and where to apply? I feel like that's exactly who should be using Vault.

[Anonymous User]

It's not a normal 1L Associate Position. They make the expectation very clear, so taking it and "trading up" for 2L would be bad faith and would look very bad. The concern is not my reputation, it is that I only get one shot at OCI, and if I sell myself short now I can't go back and try again.

I'm hoping for advice on what sort of outcome is common for median students at T6. I don't have any special work experience for whatever that is worth.

Some T6 median people miss biglaw altogether, and a program like the pro bono scholars program is probably a pretty good insulator against the possibility of a no-offer as long as you work hard enough at the firm. That's a better deal than a lot of T6 students get, plus you get paid $20,000 for 1L, a guaranteed 2L position, and you won't even have to go through OCI. That's a sweet deal. I'd take it.

[Uncle.Joe]

I do like that vault ranking made everyone pounce.

You really haven't said what you want though in terms of practice area or location. A firm that pays market is a fine outcome for a T6 at median irrespective of vault ranking, especially if its in a location you want and is strong in a practice area your interested in.

Now I would like to have a debate about whether Michigan still deserves to be in MVP.