Bickel & Brewer bumps base salary to 185k Forum

[AllTheLawz]

Wiley Rein in DC kind of does this. You can choose the 1800 billable tier and make $135k or the 1950 billable tier for $160k. I think a few others do it as well.

A 16% pay cut for billing 8% fewer hours doesn't seem like a great deal. Also, ditto SBL's cynicism on being able to effectively pace yourself for 1800 hours when most of your colleagues are gunning for more.

And, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the bonus structure is different, so the pay cut is actually more than 16%.

Dont know about the bonus structure. If you choose the lower tier and happen to meet the 1950 hours you get deferred compensation. I was told a lot of people choose the lower tier and simple use deferred compensation as a form of savings. Wiley Rein is the type of firm where a lot of people head to gov't before they make partner so it wouldn't shock me if someone chose the lower tier, headed to gov't and then came back as a partner. DC just isn't as hour intensive as NYC in general.

[Anonymous User]

I know "NY to $190" is largely flame, but what do you think the chances are of V50 increasing the lockstep payscale in the next few years? I'm a 3L going to a big firm, and it'd be pretty awesome to have that sudden increase kick in as a second or third year.

[Anonymous User]

Wiley Rein in DC kind of does this. You can choose the 1800 billable tier and make $135k or the 1950 billable tier for $160k. I think a few others do it as well.

A 16% pay cut for billing 8% fewer hours doesn't seem like a great deal. Also, ditto SBL's cynicism on being able to effectively pace yourself for 1800 hours when most of your colleagues are gunning for more.

And, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the bonus structure is different, so the pay cut is actually more than 16%.

Dont know about the bonus structure. If you choose the lower tier and happen to meet the 1950 hours you get deferred compensation. I was told a lot of people choose the lower tier and simple use deferred compensation as a form of savings. Wiley Rein is the type of firm where a lot of people head to gov't before they make partner so it wouldn't shock me if someone chose the lower tier, headed to gov't and then came back as a partner. DC just isn't as hour intensive as NYC in general.

I worked with a Wiley Rein associate. Don't assume you can bill the lower track and make partner. He/she says many refer to it derogatively as the "mommy track."

[Anonymous User]

I know "NY to $190" is largely flame, but what do you think the chances are of V50 increasing the lockstep payscale in the next few years? I'm a 3L going to a big firm, and it'd be pretty awesome to have that sudden increase kick in as a second or third year.

More likely than you'd think.

(V10 associate)

[Renzo]

I know "NY to $190" is largely flame, but what do you think the chances are of V50 increasing the lockstep payscale in the next few years? I'm a 3L going to a big firm, and it'd be pretty awesome to have that sudden increase kick in as a second or third year.

More likely than you'd think.

(V10 associate)

I'd think the chances are zero. So you're saying it might be as high as 5%?

[Anonymous User]

I know "NY to $190" is largely flame, but what do you think the chances are of V50 increasing the lockstep payscale in the next few years? I'm a 3L going to a big firm, and it'd be pretty awesome to have that sudden increase kick in as a second or third year.

More likely than you'd think.

(V10 associate)

I'd think the chances are zero. So you're saying it might be as high as 5%?

Can't go into too much detail, mostly because I really don't want to obstruct something that could inure to my benefit.

I should premise this by saying that it'll probably only be done if it's expected that peer firms won't match. What's keeping salaries from going higher is that any recruiting advantage is negated if everyone matches, and then at the end of the day you're just paying more for no reason.

Percentage-wise, I'd say 20% chance of it happening before January, probably 40% chance of it happening before January 2014.

[rayiner]

Wiley Rein in DC kind of does this. You can choose the 1800 billable tier and make $135k or the 1950 billable tier for $160k. I think a few others do it as well.

A 16% pay cut for billing 8% fewer hours doesn't seem like a great deal. Also, ditto SBL's cynicism on being able to effectively pace yourself for 1800 hours when most of your colleagues are gunning for more.

You cost the firm a lot of money in benefits and overhead that don't decrease as your Walsh decreases.

[Anonymous User]

Wiley Rein in DC kind of does this. You can choose the 1800 billable tier and make $135k or the 1950 billable tier for $160k. I think a few others do it as well.

A 16% pay cut for billing 8% fewer hours doesn't seem like a great deal. Also, ditto SBL's cynicism on being able to effectively pace yourself for 1800 hours when most of your colleagues are gunning for more.

And, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the bonus structure is different, so the pay cut is actually more than 16%.

Dont know about the bonus structure. If you choose the lower tier and happen to meet the 1950 hours you get deferred compensation. I was told a lot of people choose the lower tier and simple use deferred compensation as a form of savings. Wiley Rein is the type of firm where a lot of people head to gov't before they make partner so it wouldn't shock me if someone chose the lower tier, headed to gov't and then came back as a partner. DC just isn't as hour intensive as NYC in general.

Don't make it sound like it's easy to get Wiley Rein in the first place. I have a communications background and competitive grades and never even got a response from mailing them last year (they didn't do OCI at my T10). I would've wanted to work no matter what their "hour tracks" look like.

[AllTheLawz]

A 16% pay cut for billing 8% fewer hours doesn't seem like a great deal. Also, ditto SBL's cynicism on being able to effectively pace yourself for 1800 hours when most of your colleagues are gunning for more.

And, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the bonus structure is different, so the pay cut is actually more than 16%.

Dont know about the bonus structure. If you choose the lower tier and happen to meet the 1950 hours you get deferred compensation. I was told a lot of people choose the lower tier and simple use deferred compensation as a form of savings. Wiley Rein is the type of firm where a lot of people head to gov't before they make partner so it wouldn't shock me if someone chose the lower tier, headed to gov't and then came back as a partner. DC just isn't as hour intensive as NYC in general.

I worked with a Wiley Rein associate. Don't assume you can bill the lower track and make partner. He/she says many refer to it derogatively as the "mommy track."

I pretty much assume partnership is unrealistic at any V100 so it doesnt really play into my thinking

[rayiner]

And, I'm gonna go ahead and guess that the bonus structure is different, so the pay cut is actually more than 16%.

Dont know about the bonus structure. If you choose the lower tier and happen to meet the 1950 hours you get deferred compensation. I was told a lot of people choose the lower tier and simple use deferred compensation as a form of savings. Wiley Rein is the type of firm where a lot of people head to gov't before they make partner so it wouldn't shock me if someone chose the lower tier, headed to gov't and then came back as a partner. DC just isn't as hour intensive as NYC in general.

I worked with a Wiley Rein associate. Don't assume you can bill the lower track and make partner. He/she says many refer to it derogatively as the "mommy track."

I pretty much assume partnership is unrealistic at any V100 so it doesnt really play into my thinking

Wiley Rein made 5 partners/counsel last year, and usually takes 15-25 entry levels. So not easy, but not quite to the point where you should ignore the possibility if it's something you want out of your career.

[LawIdiot86]

Dont know about the bonus structure. If you choose the lower tier and happen to meet the 1950 hours you get deferred compensation. I was told a lot of people choose the lower tier and simple use deferred compensation as a form of savings. Wiley Rein is the type of firm where a lot of people head to gov't before they make partner so it wouldn't shock me if someone chose the lower tier, headed to gov't and then came back as a partner. DC just isn't as hour intensive as NYC in general.

I worked with a Wiley Rein associate. Don't assume you can bill the lower track and make partner. He/she says many refer to it derogatively as the "mommy track."

I pretty much assume partnership is unrealistic at any V100 so it doesnt really play into my thinking

Wiley Rein made 5 partners/counsel last year, and usually takes 15-25 entry levels. So not easy, but not quite to the point where you should ignore the possibility if it's something you want out of your career.

How many of those five started at the firm as summers and never left before making partner?

[badaboom61]

Wiley Rein made 5 partners/counsel last year, and usually takes 15-25 entry levels. So not easy, but not quite to the point where you should ignore the possibility if it's something you want out of your career.

When you say "usually takes 15-25", you mean last 2 years or back in 2004 when those partners graduated from law school?

[portaprokoss]

Jesus. How is a firm with such a corny, ambulance-chaser-esque website so baller?

Yea, worst website ever. I love 1) the music, 2) when they explain how hyperlinks work, and 3) the invitation to "explore and enjoy."

[portaprokoss]

Jesus. How is a firm with such a corny, ambulance-chaser-esque website so baller?

Yea, worst big law website ever. I love 1) the music, 2) when they explain how hyperlinks work, and 3) the invitation to "explore and enjoy."

[rayiner]

Wiley Rein made 5 partners/counsel last year, and usually takes 15-25 entry levels. So not easy, but not quite to the point where you should ignore the possibility if it's something you want out of your career.

When you say "usually takes 15-25", you mean last 2 years or back in 2004 when those partners graduated from law school?

They took ~25 during the top of the boom, and 12-15 the last few years. I don't know what their incoming class in 2004 was, but I've estimated elsewhere that hiring for C/O 2011 is about the same as hiring for C/O 2003-2004 (before the housing boom, during the recession from the dot-com bubble bursting).

[Anonymous User]

I worked with a Wiley Rein associate. Don't assume you can bill the lower track and make partner. He/she says many refer to it derogatively as the "mommy track."

I pretty much assume partnership is unrealistic at any V100 so it doesnt really play into my thinking

Wiley Rein made 5 partners/counsel last year, and usually takes 15-25 entry levels. So not easy, but not quite to the point where you should ignore the possibility if it's something you want out of your career.

How many of those five started at the firm as summers and never left before making partner?

I believe it's 5/5, although I believe 3/5 clerked out of law school (with one of those being a SCOTUS clerk)

[Anonymous User]

Is the firm's reputation really that bad

[kalvano]

Is the firm's reputation really that bad

Yes. They aren't paying you that much money to sit around and look pretty and bill 1800 hours a year.

[Anonymous User]

But you don't hear similar things about the Susman Godfreys of the world.

[kalvano]

Bickel practices a pretty "scorched earth" type of litigation, and they look for and encourage people who may not be the easiest to get along with. There's a difference in attitude that makes it much more unpleasant and pressurized to work there. Think working with an entire firm full of people that combine the lesser qualities of Harvey Spector and Louis Litt.

[09042014]

If B&B can pay 185k and demand more hours, how come no firms are willing to pay a little bit less and demand less hours? I'd take 120k/year (in a market-paying city) if it meant working 25% less hours. And that would be more sustainable in the longer run (less laterals, attrition, etc)

Wiley Rein in DC kind of does this. You can choose the 1800 billable tier and make $135k or the 1950 billable tier for $160k. I think a few others do it as well.

thats awesome. I wonder how many people actually choose the 135k option and how long they end up staying at the firm. Is that an automatic path to being pushed out the door? I assume they wouldn't make those people partner, btu it would be nice if you could eventually just be "of counsel" or something.

Somewhat cynically, I wonder how many of the 135K people end up billing 2000+ hours. I have a hard time picturing a scenario where a partner gives out an assignment and an associate responds with "Sorry sir, but I've billed my 1800th hour."

From what they told me quite a few do the 135K. You get started at 135K and you gotta bill your way 160K. And the bigger problem was actually wanting to get 160K, but failing. The firm does a ton of telecom regulation, so the hours aren't crazy.

But I bet if you go to trial or something you really have no choice.

[Anonymous User]

Is the firm's reputation really that bad

Yes. They aren't paying you that much money to sit around and look pretty and bill 1800 hours a year.

You can't make such a broad statement without a proper comparison. Are the hours and work "that bad" relative to work-life in general? Yes. Is it "that bad" relative to other big law firms? Not really. I have a friend that works at B&B and he doesn't think it is that bad because he knew what he was getting himself into. He actually thought the work and hours were going to be much worse based on all the comments he was hearing before he started work.

If you get an interview at the firm, they tell you straight-up that the work will be tough and demanding. In fact, they are so busy that they conduct interviews on a Saturday. Yes, they have a van to transport you home after long hours. Yes, their work-week is Monday-Saturday. Yes, they have beds and showers at the office for their attorneys. However, they pay you for your efforts (great salary plus sizeable bonuses).

Because it is a smaller litigation firm, you will get great hands-on experience. There will be no busy work and you will never have to worry about "making your hours." If you work at a big firm, you will appreciate the fact that there is no "face time" requirement there either. Due to its reputation, B&B gets hired for those high-stakes, bet-the-company style litigation cases. But there is some truth when it comes to its aggressive reputation. When I was at SMU, career services warned us about working at "rambo style" firms and what that can do to our reputations in the future. While this mainly applied to working for firms with questionable ethical practices (i.e. the Correa Firm, Jenkins & Gilcrest, etc), it can apply to extremely aggressive firms as well.

As long as you know what you are getting yourself into and adequately prepared yourself, working at a place like B&B will not necessarily be a bad decision.

[Anonymous User]

I know "NY to $190" is largely flame, but what do you think the chances are of V50 increasing the lockstep payscale in the next few years? I'm a 3L going to a big firm, and it'd be pretty awesome to have that sudden increase kick in as a second or third year.

More likely than you'd think.

(V10 associate)

I'd think the chances are zero. So you're saying it might be as high as 5%?

Can't go into too much detail, mostly because I really don't want to obstruct something that could inure to my benefit.

I should premise this by saying that it'll probably only be done if it's expected that peer firms won't match. What's keeping salaries from going higher is that any recruiting advantage is negated if everyone matches, and then at the end of the day you're just paying more for no reason.

Percentage-wise, I'd say 20% chance of it happening before January, probably 40% chance of it happening before January 2014.

Well if this happens, wouldn't it have to happen in September? If you were going for a recruiting advantage you'd want to announce it right as people were going to decide after OCI right?

In that case it seems likely that "peer firms" would match in the next cycle then...

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone had interviews with them recently? They did spring OCI here at my school for 2Ls and I just wondered if anyone knew what was up with their summer hiring.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone had interviews with them recently? They did spring OCI here at my school for 2Ls and I just wondered if anyone knew what was up with their summer hiring.

I went to their "Callback Weekend" back during fall OCI; they appeared to have enough people there to fill all the slots they intend to. They traditionally hire just out of that. 2L OCI might be a new thing.