NYC V5 versus Kirkland Chicago Forum

[Anonymous User]

Second 6:32am anon here:

Some very bad advice/logic/and use of the anon feature here....if you are going to use terrible logic/math/experiences at least have the guts to do so w/o anon--otherwise your points are irrelevant, pointless, and gutless.

Since this was obviously directed at me, let me clear something up here: the reason I'm using the anonymous feature is because in my first post I named my firm and my office and gave a lot of details about myself. I've been posting on this site for going on four years and have thousands of posts, but I've used the anonymous feature only a handful of times. Further, the fact that you've managed to convince yourself that posts are "pointless" and "irrelevant" when they are anonymous but not when they have an anonymous username next to them just defies reason.

[Old Gregg]

Dude. It's snape. Read his post history, and then promptly stop taking him seriously.

[dixiecupdrinking]

All things considered I think Kirkland is the clear "rational" choice here. There would be plenty of reasons to go with DPW (preference for their practice area strengths, preference to be in New York, etc.) but none of them seem to apply to your situation.

Just one thing to add to the inevitable clusterfuck that is COL discussions: Keep in mind that a lot of V5 associates only intend to be in NYC for a few years and want the prestigious resume line to help them lateral to a smaller, more livable market when it comes time to have a family, etc. You'll be a step ahead already by starting your career in Chicago, at a firm where you won't be sacrificing any national name-recognition or prestige, to boot.

[Snape]

http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/ ... e-u-s.html

[lesananas]

Second 6:32am anon here:

OP here. Am highly interested in Bankruptcy work (have a little bit of work experience in the area and it's something that I'm really drawn to). How does that change things?

Yes, this substantially changes the calculus. A widely-held belief is that Kirkland and Weil are "it" in bankruptcy. I think that probably overstates the case a little bit, but at a minimum Kirkland is a debtor-side firm and DPW is a creditor-side firm.

Debtor work is generally thought to be the more desirable of the work. The debtor is the company that actually files for bankruptcy (say, United Airlines). The creditors are the banks, the bondholders, the unions, and the shareholders. The debtor's attorneys are akin to distressed-scenario general counsel, overseeing a massive workout from start to finish.

Creditor's attorneys are, on the other hand, in a more narrow role of trying to maximize recovery on a particular claim. I suspect, however, that the case in favor of debtor's work is often overstated. The anon above makes some points that effect.

Davis Polk is a nothing in bankruptcy

You're entitled to your opinion, but what I posted was derived from independent and objective analysis of practice area strengths, so you're really going to have to back your statement up if you want anybody ITT to take you seriously. Convincing me is irrelevant and I don't really care if we disagree, but it isn't helpful to say a firm's practice area "is nothing" without backing it up.

Playing devil's advocate, the best I could come up with is that DPW's BK group is small, but K&E's Chicago practice isn't huge either.

I don't think it's true that "Davis Polk is nothing in bankruptcy," but Weil and Kirkland are the big players here because they get most of the debtor work (which you can verify in the Chambers profiles). Kirkland's bankruptcy group in Chicago is one of the foremost groups in the country (although it and the New York group are basically one group).

Not disagreeing but I will throw out there that you pay 11% sales tax in Chicago. NY is high also, but not applied to every purchase. I always forget about the 11% until my bill comes back being way higher than I anticipated.

Your dollar gets you about 1.7 times further in Chicago than in New York. http://www.nalp.org/buying_power_index_class_of_2010. As far as I know, taxes overall are lower in Chicago or at a least a wash. The money calculus objectively favors Chicago, especially when you take into account above market pay at Kirkland.

I never said it didn't - I think everyone agrees that it does. I'm not sure why everyone is taking my little aside/rant about chicago's high sales tax to mean that I think chicago is OVERALL a more expensive city. It is objectively cheaper than nyc.

[Bronte]

http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/ ... e-u-s.html

Yes, OP, you should chose DPW because you are more likely to be murdered at Kirkland.

[Anonymous User]

This is no doubt a tough call, and I've discussed this issue with several people before (inevitably there's at least a handful of NU and UCHI students worrying about this decision every year).

As someone who's lived in both cities for extended periods of time, I will add my two cents. First the COL difference is significant. Although most people on here have been underestimating the cost of rent in desirable neighborhoods in Chicago (you will not find a 1BR in River North/Gold Coast for under $1500) or misrepresenting the desirability of other neighborhoods (Streeterville is certainly less desirable given that it is almost entirely devoid of nightlife, retail, any commercial activity), paying $1500-$2000 for a 1BR in the nicest areas of Chicago that happen to also be walking distance to K&E crushes paying $3500 for the same privilege in NYC. The other most noticeable cost difference is going out, I'm still amazed at how cheap eating and drinking is in Chicago.

All that said, the two cities are very different. I like both for different reasons. NYC is literally amazing and has the best of everything. I find it inspiring and thrilling. Culture, style, food, nightlife, etc. are lightyears ahead of Chicago. On the other hand, Chicago is an absolutely gorgeous city with many different, vibrant neighborhoods. It is slower-paced, more low-key and is much easier to settle in and build a stable life.

Corporate exit options coming from DPW will be better simply by virtue of being in NYC. K&E will have good exit options but the Chicago legal and finance market is barely breathing so if you want to leave it might either require a less than desirable landing spot or moving to a different city. I will also note that I was told by a K&E partner that they will ALWAYS seriously consider resumes from associates at certain firms (he mentioned STB and Cravath, but I assume DPW fits the bill also), so lateraling into K&E may be a real option. Although I have no direct knowledge about lateraling into DPW, it might be more difficult coming from Chicago.

[Anonymous User]

People are underestimating Brooklyn rents here. In the areas of Brooklyn where most Biglawyers tend to live (Brooklyn Heights, Boerum Hill, Cobble Hill, Carroll Gardens, Park Slope off the Q or 2/3, etc...) the rents are HIGHER than lots of areas in Manhattan.

Yes, you can find a room in Brooklyn in a safe area for cheap. But forget about living in a luxury 1BR in Cobble Hill for anywhere near comparable downtown Chicago rates.

OP here. I think this is right. My last job was near GCT. Generally speaking, places in Brooklyn within 35 minutes of GCT were not cheap. Even convenient parts of Fort Greene are getting expensive. I know couples in BoCoCa who are living in not-spectacular apartments in the 1000-1100 sq ft range paying ridiculous amounts of money in rent.

Anyway, I feel like this thread has really gotten off track. I don't need to debate COL differences. I feel like I have a really good sense of living in both cities.

Agreed, I live in a new high rise 5-10 minutes from Atlantic Terminal in Park Slope and I think 1 BR's in my building are like $2500+.

[Snape]

Are people really comparing Streeterville to anything worth talking about in Manhattan or Bklyn? What a joke! Streeterville is a glorified dorm--HA!

[rayiner]

http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/ ... e-u-s.html

Some people say "murder rate" when they mean "total murders." New Orleans, Baltimore, Philadelphia, DC, etc, all have higher murder rates than Chicago. E.g. Philly had 324 homicides last year for 1.54M people (216 per million). DC had 109 for 0.62M people (177 per million). Chicago had 438 for 2.7M people (162 per million).

[rayiner]

Are people really comparing Streeterville to anything worth talking about in Manhattan or Bklyn? What a joke! Streeterville is a glorified dorm--HA!

No, people are talking about the price of housing in places within walking distance from K&E.

[Snape]

http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/ ... e-u-s.html

Some people say "murder rate" when they mean "total murders." New Orleans, Baltimore, Philadelphia, DC, etc, all have higher murder rates than Chicago. E.g. Philly had 324 homicides last year for 1.54M people (216 per million). DC had 109 for 0.62M people (177 per million). Chicago had 438 for 2.7M people (162 per million).

You forgot to include NYCs numbers--or would that hurt your argument?

[Snape]

Are people really comparing Streeterville to anything worth talking about in Manhattan or Bklyn? What a joke! Streeterville is a glorified dorm--HA!

No, people are talking about the price of housing in places within walking distance from K&E.

So the low cost option people are using to compare rent in the two locations in regards to walking distance is the NU law/med dorms?

[IAFG]

Are people really comparing Streeterville to anything worth talking about in Manhattan or Bklyn? What a joke! Streeterville is a glorified dorm--HA!

No, people are talking about the price of housing in places within walking distance from K&E.

So the low cost option people are using to compare rent in the two locations in regards to walking distance is the NU law/med dorms?

I'm sorry, are you saying Streeterville is a cheaper neighborhood than River North?

[Snape]

Are people really comparing Streeterville to anything worth talking about in Manhattan or Bklyn? What a joke! Streeterville is a glorified dorm--HA!

No, people are talking about the price of housing in places within walking distance from K&E.

So the low cost option people are using to compare rent in the two locations in regards to walking distance is the NU law/med dorms?

I'm sorry, are you saying Streeterville is a cheaper neighborhood than River North?

Lost in the clouds...lost in the clouds

[rayiner]

http://www.bet.com/news/health/2012/02/ ... e-u-s.html

Some people say "murder rate" when they mean "total murders." New Orleans, Baltimore, Philadelphia, DC, etc, all have higher murder rates than Chicago. E.g. Philly had 324 homicides last year for 1.54M people (216 per million). DC had 109 for 0.62M people (177 per million). Chicago had 438 for 2.7M people (162 per million).

You forgot to include NYCs numbers--or would that hurt your argument?

It's irrelevant to my argument that Chicago doesn't have the highest murder rate.

[rayiner]

Are people really comparing Streeterville to anything worth talking about in Manhattan or Bklyn? What a joke! Streeterville is a glorified dorm--HA!

No, people are talking about the price of housing in places within walking distance from K&E.

So the low cost option people are using to compare rent in the two locations in regards to walking distance is the NU law/med dorms?

The NU dorm (Abott) is like $900 for a 1BR. We're talking about market rate places. There are lots near K&E for $1500/month. There are some $2000/month places in brand new buildings, but MIMA in fucking Hell's kitchen runs you $3,800/month for a 1BR.

K&E is in River North, which is cheaper than Streeterville. Parts of Gold Coast further from the lake (towards K&E) are also cheaper than Streeterville. The only part more expensive is the area around Mag Mile in Gold Coast, but why would you want to live there?

[buckilaw]

Curious to hear what OP decided on.

[Anonymous User]

K&E is in River North, which is cheaper than Streeterville. Parts of Gold Coast further from the lake (towards K&E) are also cheaper than Streeterville. The only part more expensive is the area around Mag Mile in Gold Coast, but why would you want to live there?

This is entirely incorrect. Streeterville is by far the cheapest of the near north neighborhoods. This should not be surprising either as Streeterville is far less desirable than either River North or Gold Coast.

River North is the most expensive rental neighborhood in all of Chicago, Gold Coast is second.

[rayiner]

K&E is in River North, which is cheaper than Streeterville. Parts of Gold Coast further from the lake (towards K&E) are also cheaper than Streeterville. The only part more expensive is the area around Mag Mile in Gold Coast, but why would you want to live there?

This is entirely incorrect. Streeterville is by far the cheapest of the near north neighborhoods. This should not be surprising either as Streeterville is far less desirable than either River North or Gold Coast.

River North is the most expensive rental neighborhood in all of Chicago, Gold Coast is second.

River North is indeed the most expensive rental neighborhood in Chicago for 1 bedrooms: http://www.domu.com/blog/top-secret-apartment-data. River North is substantially cheaper for 2BR+. Still, the median rent for a 1BR in River North is $1,800/month. Median rents in Manhattan below 96th street are still far higher: http://www.mns.com/manhattan_rental_market_report. A 1BR doorman building in Murray Hill or Midtown East, which is walking distance to DPW/STB/etc, is just over $3,500/mo. That's a $1,700/month price difference.

You can save a lot of money stepping down to a studio. $1,450 in River North versus $2,400 in Midtown East or $2,600 in Murray Hill. About a $1,000 difference.

Also, you don't have to live in River North... Streeterville is an easy walk to K&E.
Also, it looks like that chart includes Streeterville in River North. It's just about which side of Michigan.

Other sources show Streeterville as more expensive per square foot: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/2 ... -RentJuice

[Anonymous User]

Curious to hear what OP decided on.

Still no decision made. Need to do return visits and talk to a lot more people. Wife is also in law school, and her offers are practically identical to mine (although she has one more V5 offer). Going to be a tough decision, and this thread's discussion of Streeterville and other Chicago neighborhoods should be invaluable going forward.

[keg411]

You and your wife should probably pick different firms. For both of your sanity.

[rayiner]

Curious to hear what OP decided on.

Still no decision made. Need to do return visits and talk to a lot more people. Wife is also in law school, and her offers are practically identical to mine (although she has one more V5 offer). Going to be a tough decision, and this thread's discussion of Streeterville and other Chicago neighborhoods should be invaluable going forward.

If you have a wife, consider this: if and when you have kids, Chicago will give you a lot of flexibility. It's possible in Chicago to do private school + city living + child on a double lawyer salary (post up-and-out). It's not really practical in Manhattan unless you want to move to Harlem, at least without substantial compromises.

We're walking around Andersonville right now, and it's like a cuter cleaner version of Astoria that's a fraction of the price, and 30 minutes to downtown. That's about the same as downtown Brooklyn to midtown.

[Anonymous User]

You and your wife should probably pick different firms. For both of your sanity.

If we do NYC, it's likely that we would, although not a sure thing. If we do Chicago, I think Kirkland is going to have to be the way to go. My impression of the Chicago market is Kirkland >>> Sidley >>>>>>>>> everything else. Kirkland seems to have a fair amount of married couples both working at the firm and they're doing a good job of letting us talk to those people about their experience.

[Anonymous User]

If you have a wife, consider this: if and when you have kids, Chicago will give you a lot of flexibility. It's possible in Chicago to do private school + city living + child on a double lawyer salary (post up-and-out). It's not really practical in Manhattan unless you want to move to Harlem, at least without substantial compromises.

I think you're right, and this is a big consideration for us. On the other hand, there's always the possibility of working at NYC V5s and moving to some place more relaxed (e.g. Chicago) after a few years.