DOJ Honors 2013 Forum

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone received an offer from OCAHO/OLAP/OCG yet?

I am still "selected as finalist," but no offer and my references have not been contacted...

OCIJ finalist, but didn't make the cut for other EOIR component. At least one references was contacted before Thanksgiving, no offer.

How did you find out that you didn't make the cut for the EOIR component (did you interview with them?) What component?

Deana Willis told me I was only a finalist for OCIJ. This happened right when finalists were announced. Prefer not to share the component...I interviewed with OCIJ and another component, frankly I bombed the other interview so it was easy to tell which one I was a finalist for even if Deana hadn't told me.

[Anonymous User]

I got my criminal division offer last thursday, and they told me monday that 8 of the 10 accepted on the spot, and 2 of us they were still waiting on. So I assume that all of the initial offers have gone out. Sorry just passing along the news.

If the Crim person who wrote the above is still around, any idea if the remaining 2 offerees accepted?

[okinawa]

.

[Anonymous User]

I was selected as a Judicial Law Clerk for OCIJ on Tuesday (early afternoon). I got my top location choice (which is one of the top three most popular locations - infer as you will). My status was flipped to finalist two weeks ago, and my references contacted by email two weeks ago. Hope that helps.

I was hoping for some advice though.

Can anyone please give me some compelling reasons to accept an offer as a JLC if you have NO interest in a career in immigration law, though I am highly interested in doing future work with the government (likely state department, AUSA, or Crim Division).

I have a back-up firm job (regular $160K offer), and am having a tough time picking OCIJ. I am graduating from a top-five law school, with good grades, so not worried about a job. Just trying to figure out really a) how prestigious is federal honors if you are being appointed to an immigration clerk position (which is itself not prestigious unless you're doing immigration work), b) how much easier it would be to lateral from OCIJ into another government position at the end of two years (AUSA, Crim, State), and c) would big firms even care about this position?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

I think you should take job.

Full disclosure: I am an OCIJ finalist (without offer) and you prob got one of my top choices.

Here's why you should take the job.

if you really want to work in public service, by turning down a prime 160K firm job in favor of a govt job that pays less than half of that, you automatically have unlimited credibility for your public service ambitions. Conversely, taking the firm job, it's harder to argue you're committed to public service, it shows that you're like most of us, and if afforded the chance to make a ton of cash right out of law school, we would take it. Taking the OCIJ job shows you're diff (above the fray?) and serious about public service.

Going forward, your exit options are prob the same. If you're top 5 school with good grades, you'll have interest from firms and govt jobs across the board after the 2 yrs. For selling the firms later on, you can honestly say, you weren't sure if you were interested in Immigration and found out you wasn't, so now you want to work for a firm. You tried it and it wasn't for you. That's simple, honest, and believable. Plus, you're early on in your career, you can afford to take risks now to get to where you want to go later on, which is public service.

For govt jobs, you can say the same thing, you wanted to give Immigration a try, but it wasn't for you, that's why you're applying to AUSA, Crim, State, etc. Also point out you turned down a 160K job in favor of public service. Again, plausible and simple. With your background, they'll be interested and you'll get lots of interviews even if you were a "lowly, unprestigious EOIR clerk".

I know of at least one person who went from OCIJ to State immediately. She had a fed coa clerkship and big firm summer on her resume. Now she's at State. There you go.

While it's true, OCIJ sets you up primarily for Immigration work, you're more credible for public service going forward even if it's in a diff area. And with your background out of law school, you're competitive for a lot of law jobs. So when you get the interviews, you gotta sell the shift away from Immigration. Although, the key is to do well enough that your judge offers a good recommendation, but if you did well in law school, you know how to do well in a subj that doesn't interest you.

[Anonymous User]

I think you should take job.

Full disclosure: I am an OCIJ finalist (without offer) and you prob got one of my top choices.

Here's why you should take the job.

if you really want to work in public service, by turning down a prime 160K firm job in favor of a govt job that pays less than half of that, you automatically have unlimited credibility for your public service ambitions. Conversely, taking the firm job, it's harder to argue you're committed to public service, it shows that you're like most of us, and if afforded the chance to make a ton of cash right out of law school, we would take it. Taking the OCIJ job shows you're diff (above the fray?) and serious about public service.

Going forward, your exit options are prob the same. If you're top 5 school with good grades, you'll have interest from firms and govt jobs across the board after the 2 yrs. For selling the firms later on, you can honestly say, you weren't sure if you were interested in Immigration and found out you wasn't, so now you want to work for a firm. You tried it and it wasn't for you. That's simple, honest, and believable. Plus, you're early on in your career, you can afford to take risks now to get to where you want to go later on, which is public service.

For govt jobs, you can say the same thing, you wanted to give Immigration a try, but it wasn't for you, that's why you're applying to AUSA, Crim, State, etc. Also point out you turned down a 160K job in favor of public service. Again, plausible and simple. With your background, they'll be interested and you'll get lots of interviews even if you were a "lowly, unprestigious EOIR clerk".

I know of at least one person who went from OCIJ to State immediately. She had a fed coa clerkship and big firm summer on her resume. Now she's at State. There you go.

While it's true, OCIJ sets you up primarily for Immigration work, you're more credible for public service going forward even if it's in a diff area. And with your background out of law school, you're competitive for a lot of law jobs. So when you get the interviews, you gotta sell the shift away from Immigration. Although, the key is to do well enough that your judge offers a good recommendation, but if you did well in law school, you know how to do well in a subj that doesn't interest you.

You're suggesting after she clerks with OCIJ she should go around at interviews bragging about how she turned down a 160K firm job? Ew. BTW I know a T10 grad who just finished the JLC program and he is JOBLESS.

[Anonymous User]

I think you should take job.

Full disclosure: I am an OCIJ finalist (without offer) and you prob got one of my top choices.

Here's why you should take the job.

if you really want to work in public service, by turning down a prime 160K firm job in favor of a govt job that pays less than half of that, you automatically have unlimited credibility for your public service ambitions. Conversely, taking the firm job, it's harder to argue you're committed to public service, it shows that you're like most of us, and if afforded the chance to make a ton of cash right out of law school, we would take it. Taking the OCIJ job shows you're diff (above the fray?) and serious about public service.

Going forward, your exit options are prob the same. If you're top 5 school with good grades, you'll have interest from firms and govt jobs across the board after the 2 yrs. For selling the firms later on, you can honestly say, you weren't sure if you were interested in Immigration and found out you wasn't, so now you want to work for a firm. You tried it and it wasn't for you. That's simple, honest, and believable. Plus, you're early on in your career, you can afford to take risks now to get to where you want to go later on, which is public service.

For govt jobs, you can say the same thing, you wanted to give Immigration a try, but it wasn't for you, that's why you're applying to AUSA, Crim, State, etc. Also point out you turned down a 160K job in favor of public service. Again, plausible and simple. With your background, they'll be interested and you'll get lots of interviews even if you were a "lowly, unprestigious EOIR clerk".

I know of at least one person who went from OCIJ to State immediately. She had a fed coa clerkship and big firm summer on her resume. Now she's at State. There you go.

While it's true, OCIJ sets you up primarily for Immigration work, you're more credible for public service going forward even if it's in a diff area. And with your background out of law school, you're competitive for a lot of law jobs. So when you get the interviews, you gotta sell the shift away from Immigration. Although, the key is to do well enough that your judge offers a good recommendation, but if you did well in law school, you know how to do well in a subj that doesn't interest you.

But why should the OP here even take that risk, when going Biglaw for a few years is already a credited route to get into DOJ?

[Anonymous User]

I think you should take job.

Full disclosure: I am an OCIJ finalist (without offer) and you prob got one of my top choices.

Here's why you should take the job.

if you really want to work in public service, by turning down a prime 160K firm job in favor of a govt job that pays less than half of that, you automatically have unlimited credibility for your public service ambitions. Conversely, taking the firm job, it's harder to argue you're committed to public service, it shows that you're like most of us, and if afforded the chance to make a ton of cash right out of law school, we would take it. Taking the OCIJ job shows you're diff (above the fray?) and serious about public service.

Going forward, your exit options are prob the same. If you're top 5 school with good grades, you'll have interest from firms and govt jobs across the board after the 2 yrs. For selling the firms later on, you can honestly say, you weren't sure if you were interested in Immigration and found out you wasn't, so now you want to work for a firm. You tried it and it wasn't for you. That's simple, honest, and believable. Plus, you're early on in your career, you can afford to take risks now to get to where you want to go later on, which is public service.

For govt jobs, you can say the same thing, you wanted to give Immigration a try, but it wasn't for you, that's why you're applying to AUSA, Crim, State, etc. Also point out you turned down a 160K job in favor of public service. Again, plausible and simple. With your background, they'll be interested and you'll get lots of interviews even if you were a "lowly, unprestigious EOIR clerk".

I know of at least one person who went from OCIJ to State immediately. She had a fed coa clerkship and big firm summer on her resume. Now she's at State. There you go.

While it's true, OCIJ sets you up primarily for Immigration work, you're more credible for public service going forward even if it's in a diff area. And with your background out of law school, you're competitive for a lot of law jobs. So when you get the interviews, you gotta sell the shift away from Immigration. Although, the key is to do well enough that your judge offers a good recommendation, but if you did well in law school, you know how to do well in a subj that doesn't interest you.

You're suggesting after she clerks with OCIJ she should go around at interviews bragging about how she turned down a 160K firm job? Ew. BTW I know a T10 grad who just finished the JLC program and he is JOBLESS.

Of course it's risky. I acknowledged that. If she is risk averse, then go with the firm job. Bragging, hardly. But it's proper to point out the other opportunity she had in lieu of OCIJ. Turning down a lot of money says a lot about a person, whether you agree or not. It's all about credibility in pursing public service...govt workers want to see that you're dedicated to the mission of public service - they always ask, "why govt". pointing out opportunities one has passed up is wholly relevant and increases credibility.

[Anonymous User]

Of course it's risky. I acknowledged that. If she is risk averse, then go with the firm job. Bragging, hardly. But it's proper to point out the other opportunity she had in lieu of OCIJ. Turning down a lot of money says a lot about a person, whether you agree or not. It's all about credibility in pursing public service...govt workers want to see that you're dedicated to the mission of public service - they always ask, "why govt". pointing out opportunities one has passed up is wholly relevant and increases credibility.

Or they assume she was no-offered after her summer at a firm. If OP has done other internships in gov't and does pro bono work at the firm, s/he'll have plenty of credibility, and a better chance of actually moving into the parts of gov't that s/he wants.

[Anonymous User]

I think you should take job.

Full disclosure: I am an OCIJ finalist (without offer) and you prob got one of my top choices.

Here's why you should take the job.

if you really want to work in public service, by turning down a prime 160K firm job in favor of a govt job that pays less than half of that, you automatically have unlimited credibility for your public service ambitions. Conversely, taking the firm job, it's harder to argue you're committed to public service, it shows that you're like most of us, and if afforded the chance to make a ton of cash right out of law school, we would take it. Taking the OCIJ job shows you're diff (above the fray?) and serious about public service.

Going forward, your exit options are prob the same. If you're top 5 school with good grades, you'll have interest from firms and govt jobs across the board after the 2 yrs. For selling the firms later on, you can honestly say, you weren't sure if you were interested in Immigration and found out you wasn't, so now you want to work for a firm. You tried it and it wasn't for you. That's simple, honest, and believable. Plus, you're early on in your career, you can afford to take risks now to get to where you want to go later on, which is public service.

For govt jobs, you can say the same thing, you wanted to give Immigration a try, but it wasn't for you, that's why you're applying to AUSA, Crim, State, etc. Also point out you turned down a 160K job in favor of public service. Again, plausible and simple. With your background, they'll be interested and you'll get lots of interviews even if you were a "lowly, unprestigious EOIR clerk".

I know of at least one person who went from OCIJ to State immediately. She had a fed coa clerkship and big firm summer on her resume. Now she's at State. There you go.

While it's true, OCIJ sets you up primarily for Immigration work, you're more credible for public service going forward even if it's in a diff area. And with your background out of law school, you're competitive for a lot of law jobs. So when you get the interviews, you gotta sell the shift away from Immigration. Although, the key is to do well enough that your judge offers a good recommendation, but if you did well in law school, you know how to do well in a subj that doesn't interest you.

But why should the OP here even take that risk, when going Biglaw for a few years is already a credited route to get into DOJ?

Because she'll be eligible to apply for DOJ honors next year too, which is a benefit of doing OCIJ right after law school. Two bites at the apple. She has to decide if this benefit is worth the risk.

[Anonymous User]

Of course it's risky. I acknowledged that. If she is risk averse, then go with the firm job. Bragging, hardly. But it's proper to point out the other opportunity she had in lieu of OCIJ. Turning down a lot of money says a lot about a person, whether you agree or not. It's all about credibility in pursing public service...govt workers want to see that you're dedicated to the mission of public service - they always ask, "why govt". pointing out opportunities one has passed up is wholly relevant and increases credibility.

I don't know, if you're trying to get out of OCIJ and have to explain why you want to do something else, I don't know that talking about the other kind of work you also decided you didn't want to do is going to make you look dedicated to public service - it's going to make you look like you keep trying things and deciding you don't like them.

[Anonymous User]

Because she'll be eligible to apply for DOJ honors next year too, which is a benefit of doing OCIJ right after law school. Two bites at the apple. She has to decide if this benefit is worth the risk.

But I think that just begs the question we're debating - yes, the OP can apply for honors again, but if they're trying to get into something non-immigration, they're still going to face the same obstacle - namely, explaining why they signed on for 2 years of a field they're not interested in and why the interviewer should believe that 1) they really aren't interested in immigration, rather than did a crappy job in the clerkship and know they won't succeed in immigration, or 2) they really are interested in the new component, rather than applying as a backup in case they don't get something in immigration. Saying "I figured out immigration wasn't for me" is easier said than done, given that one of the cardinal rules of interviewing is not to say anything bad about your previous jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Haven't commented on this yet, but this thread has me rethinking whether OCIJ was really for me too. I also don't have interest in immigration law, but was interested in DOJ. Seriously reconsidering now. People seem to be blinded by the prestige and idea of it being "DOJ HONORS" - I vote go for the firm!

[worldtraveler]

I'm not sure why anyone not interested in immigration law would take an OCIJ job. It's probably one of the most area specific jobs you can get right out of law school, and it sends a pretty clear signal on your resume that you are interested in immigration law. If you don't want that, don't do it.

[Anonymous User]

Haven't commented on this yet, but this thread has me rethinking whether OCIJ was really for me too. I also don't have interest in immigration law, but was interested in DOJ. Seriously reconsidering now. People seem to be blinded by the prestige and idea of it being "DOJ HONORS" - I vote go for the firm!

There was an earlier discussion referring to the "prestige" of DOJH being largely in the head of TLS/law students, and that a lot of people (in the other site's discussion) see it as difficult to get but not prestigious. I didn't apply to OCIJ and I think if you don't want to do immigration long-term, it's not a good choice.

[Anonymous User]

I cannot believe that 1) you would apply for EOIR positions without being interested in/wanting to make a career out of practicing immigration law and 2) they chose to actually offer these people jobs. Disappointing to say the least. :/ Almost everything I've done since coming to law school has been immigration-related (LR note, work experience, volunteer work, etc.), and its both what I want to do/am doing now and for my entire career...

[Willow617]

...

[Anonymous User]

I cannot believe that 1) you would apply for EOIR positions without being interested in/wanting to make a career out of practicing immigration law and 2) they chose to actually offer these people jobs. Disappointing to say the least. :/ Almost everything I've done since coming to law school has been immigration-related (LR note, work experience, volunteer work, etc.), and its both what I want to do/am doing now and for my entire career...

No one who expressed doubts is saying that they actually accepted the job. And... you are overlooking the fact that people might have put OCIJ as their 2nd or 3rd choice and that was the only component that called them back. I understand your frustration, but there's 60+ positions. It's a fact that some (not all) people who accepted/will accept an OCIJ position did so because it was their only offer through DOJ.

[Anonymous User]

I cannot believe that 1) you would apply for EOIR positions without being interested in/wanting to make a career out of practicing immigration law and 2) they chose to actually offer these people jobs. Disappointing to say the least. :/ Almost everything I've done since coming to law school has been immigration-related (LR note, work experience, volunteer work, etc.), and its both what I want to do/am doing now and for my entire career...

Eh, be fair. People get offered jobs because they have good qualifications and they interview well. No one's walking into these interviews saying "well, I have no interest in a career practicing immigration law," and the OCIJ people don't have magical mind-reading equipment that tells them what someone's real level of interest is.

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this thread who has supplied info about application status and this whole less-than-ideal process these past few months.

I get that some applicants are ultimately aiming higher than OCIJ, but for me this JLC position is both a dream job and a long shot. So I've found all the informational updates quite helpful (disappointing week of finalist-with-checked-references-going-nowhere-fast notwithstanding!).

That said, although people are obviously free to do whatever they want on this board, I don't really see the point of bickering and tearing each other down. Congratulations to those with offers, and good luck to the rest of us!

[Anonymous User]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone in this thread who has supplied info about application status and this whole less-than-ideal process these past few months.

I get that some applicants are ultimately aiming higher than OCIJ, but for me this JLC position is both a dream job and a long shot. So I've found all the informational updates quite helpful (disappointing week of finalist-with-checked-references-going-nowhere-fast notwithstanding!).

That said, although people are obviously free to do whatever they want on this board, I don't really see the point of bickering and tearing each other down. Congratulations to those with offers, and good luck to the rest of us!

I'm the person who said immigration isn't "prestigious" as this board defines it - but I just wanted to emphasize that I think these are really great positions for going into immigration, and that this board's obsession with a narrow definition of "prestige" is misplaced. (Apologies to those who don't buy into that definition - don't mean to lump everyone together.) Good luck to you - I'm sure the offers are still rolling out - it's a long process!

[Anonymous User]

To my fellow EOIR finalists:

For statistical purposes, and to gain a better understanding of how many of us there are on this board, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest we number ourselves. I'm sure we are all going crazy, and it might give us a better sense as to where EOIR is in their hiring process.

This will not only give us a better idea of how many posters are on this thread, but also a way to identify ourselves in future posts while still remaining anonymous. For example, if EOIR finalist #7 gets an offer, he/she can post something like: EOIR finalist #7 here, I received an offer today! Or, if finalist #4 finds out he/she is an alternate, he/she can post: Finalist #4 here, found out I am an alternate.

So I am EOIR OCIJ finalist #1. Some of my references (gov't employees) were contacted before my interview, but haven't heard anything since.

If anyone wants to participate, respond with a EOIR finalist and number (e.g., EOIR finalist #2, #3, #4, and so on), and any information you wish to share.

[Anonymous User]

ooh good idea!

EOIR finalist #2. No references contacted yet : (

[Anonymous User]

EOIR Finalist #3. All of my references have been contacted.

*edit* - OCIJ

[Anonymous User]

EOIR-OJIC Finalist #4

References contacted 11/13. Two have responded, unsure of the third.

[Anonymous User]

EOIR finalist #5. At least one reference contacted before thanksgiving. Excellent idea btw.