Am I about to make a big F*** up? Forum

[Anonymous User]

About to accept an offer for next summer. I have 3 offers. 2 from V75-V100 firms in NYC. 1 from the largest firm in a flyover state (in which I am from). Summer pay is 3,000 in NYC and 1800 Flyover. All of my friends and family live in flyover, and they intend to make offers to the summer class. I would be A LOT happier in the flyover state obviously. But my debt is/will be 200k upon graduation (the curse of the t-14).

Starting salary for first year would be 160 in NYC and 88k in flyover. I didn't go into the law school to be a millionaire nor did I go into law school to work 80+ hours a week. I don't care what the pay is, I enjoy family/friends/social life too much.

I am leaning towards accepting flyover. Thoughts/advice/insights? Will I be able to use IBR? Will I be able to eat more than ramen noodles?

Thank you for the insight and helping me determine my future

[Anonymous User]

bro, i think it depends partially on the practice areas.

In certain areas of law, it is probably better to gain experience in big firms' headquarters first and such experience will help you to advance your career later in secondary markets. But that might not be true in other practice areas.

However, I think if you have considerable local ties to a state, it is not a bad idea to start there, even if the salary is lower. While we are young, it is often not a good idea to chase the money. We should also consider long-term career potential. As future lawyers, our business is to serve clients. It is much easier, at least in theory, for a local guy to establish client connections in his/her home state then in a big city like New York.

Not to mention the happiness factor. This is the reason why some of my top classmates are not going to NY/CA but instead going to their home states' top law firms. They believe that with their connections, they can have greater career potentials, despite the lower earnings at first.

[IAFG]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

[Anonymous User]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

OP here. Flyover has a very good offer rate. Not sure on the exact numbers. But they only hire a small number of SAs and intend to make offers to everyone.

NYC = take home is 98k. After Rent = 78k. Debt (10 yr repayment) = 50k

Flyover = take home is 65k. After Rent = 59k. Debt (25 yr repayment) = 47k

Food would be a lot cheaper in flyover. Big difference is 10 yr repayment vs 25 yr.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I was in your same position with a V60 offer in NYC versus a NLJ250 in the Midwest. I did a lot of research and talked with attorneys. They almost unanimously agreed that with 2-3 years in a NYC Vault firm, you should be able to go just about anywhere you want in terms of location.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I was in your same position with a V60 offer in NYC versus a NLJ250 in the Midwest. I did a lot of research and talked with attorneys. They almost unanimously agreed that with 2-3 years in a NYC Vault firm, you should be able to go just about anywhere you want in terms of location.

Well you just threw a wrench in this! How did your situation play out?

[Anonymous User]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

OP here. Flyover has a very good offer rate. Not sure on the exact numbers. But they only hire a small number of SAs and intend to make offers to everyone.

NYC = take home is 98k. After Rent = 78k. Debt (10 yr repayment) = 50k

Flyover = take home is 65k. After Rent = 59k. Debt (25 yr repayment) = 47k

Food would be a lot cheaper in flyover. Big difference is 10 yr repayment vs 25 yr.

Your numbers seem a little off. How did you figure out rent (you left out other expenses....) and how is the debt a 10 year repayment at 50k and a 25 at 47? Also, at 50k a year how does it ever take 10 years to pay off 200k?

[Anonymous User]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

OP here. Flyover has a very good offer rate. Not sure on the exact numbers. But they only hire a small number of SAs and intend to make offers to everyone.

NYC = take home is 98k. After Rent = 78k. Debt (10 yr repayment) = 50k

Flyover = take home is 65k. After Rent = 59k. Debt (25 yr repayment) = 47k

Food would be a lot cheaper in flyover. Big difference is 10 yr repayment vs 25 yr.

Your numbers seem a little off. How did you figure out rent (you left out other expenses....) and how is the debt a 10 year repayment at 50k and a 25 at 47? Also, at 50k a year how does it ever take 10 years to pay off 200k?

Sorry I didnt break that down. The numbers are what is left over, after I did the subtraction, so

NYC = take home is (160k-72K) = 98k leftover. After Rent = (98k-20k) = 78k leftover . Debt (10 yr repayment) = (78k - 38k) = 50k leftover

Flyover = take home is (88k - 23k) = 65k leftover. After Rent = (65k - 7k) = 59k leftover. Debt (25 yr repayment) = (59k - 12K) = 47k leftover

What am I missing besides food?

[IAFG]

Health insurance (what is each firm kicking in?), car & car insurance (for flyover, assume none for NY), if one of the firms has retirement matching, should probably weigh that in favor of that firm.

[09042014]

Health insurance (what is each firm kicking in?), car & car insurance (for flyover, assume none for NY), if one of the firms has retirement matching, should probably weigh that in favor of that firm.

You should factor in salary increases. You make roughly a million over 5 years in biglawl.

[Anonymous User]

FWIW, I was in your same position with a V60 offer in NYC versus a NLJ250 in the Midwest. I did a lot of research and talked with attorneys. They almost unanimously agreed that with 2-3 years in a NYC Vault firm, you should be able to go just about anywhere you want in terms of location.

Well you just threw a wrench in this! How did your situation play out?

I went with the V60, though I won't start work as an associate until 2013. It seems like the type of work most biglaw NYC firms do in terms of both scope and magnitude is marketable to pretty much anywhere.

Assuming what I previously said is true, I'd choose NYC unless you know you'd be very unhappy there. I had never lived in a town bigger than 200K, and I absolutely loved it. It's a great place to spend your 20s (assuming you're still relatively young).

[Anonymous User]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

OP here. Flyover has a very good offer rate. Not sure on the exact numbers. But they only hire a small number of SAs and intend to make offers to everyone.

NYC = take home is 98k. After Rent = 78k. Debt (10 yr repayment) = 50k

Flyover = take home is 65k. After Rent = 59k. Debt (25 yr repayment) = 47k

Food would be a lot cheaper in flyover. Big difference is 10 yr repayment vs 25 yr.

Your numbers seem a little off. How did you figure out rent (you left out other expenses....) and how is the debt a 10 year repayment at 50k and a 25 at 47? Also, at 50k a year how does it ever take 10 years to pay off 200k?

Sorry I didnt break that down. The numbers are what is left over, after I did the subtraction, so

NYC = take home is (160k-72K) = 98k leftover. After Rent = (98k-20k) = 78k leftover . Debt (10 yr repayment) = (78k - 38k) = 50k leftover

Flyover = take home is (88k - 23k) = 65k leftover. After Rent = (65k - 7k) = 59k leftover. Debt (25 yr repayment) = (59k - 12K) = 47k leftover

What am I missing besides food?

I think this really comes down to what you want the next ten years of your life to look like. Firstly, what are salaries like after 3-4 years at each of these firms? Keep in mind that salaries can change based on market rates as well. Secondly, do you have any other financial obligations? Do you plan to buy a house anytime soon/get married/have kids? If you're single and renting and plan to keep doing that for awhile, then you could conceivably take flyover and pay off your debt in 10 years and still have just under $2,000 a month left over each year to cover other expenses. You wouldn't be saving much and would have to be fairly frugal, but we're not talking ramen level.

That said, if you are that young and aren't so tied down, you should also realize that you might like living in NYC more than you currently think you would. Your hours will probably be worse, but it's likely that your future career options will be better. Not everyone gets the chance to live in NYC in his/her 20's with almost $50K a year in disposable income.

Finally, you mention offer rates at the flyover firm but not the NYC ones. You should consider other things that you would think about while weighing any firms against one another: firm stability, partner/associate relations, strength in the type of law you want to focus on (or opportunities to branch out if you're not yet sure), etc. This is largely a financial decision but in the end, if your gut is really leading you in a certain direction, go with that.

[Anonymous User]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

OP here. Flyover has a very good offer rate. Not sure on the exact numbers. But they only hire a small number of SAs and intend to make offers to everyone.

NYC = take home is 98k. After Rent = 78k. Debt (10 yr repayment) = 50k

Flyover = take home is 65k. After Rent = 59k. Debt (25 yr repayment) = 47k

Food would be a lot cheaper in flyover. Big difference is 10 yr repayment vs 25 yr.

Your numbers seem a little off. How did you figure out rent (you left out other expenses....) and how is the debt a 10 year repayment at 50k and a 25 at 47? Also, at 50k a year how does it ever take 10 years to pay off 200k?

Sorry I didnt break that down. The numbers are what is left over, after I did the subtraction, so

NYC = take home is (160k-72K) = 98k leftover. After Rent = (98k-20k) = 78k leftover . Debt (10 yr repayment) = (78k - 38k) = 50k leftover

Flyover = take home is (88k - 23k) = 65k leftover. After Rent = (65k - 7k) = 59k leftover. Debt (25 yr repayment) = (59k - 12K) = 47k leftover

What am I missing besides food?

I think this really comes down to what you want the next ten years of your life to look like. Firstly, what are salaries like after 3-4 years at each of these firms? Keep in mind that salaries can change based on market rates as well. Secondly, do you have any other financial obligations? Do you plan to buy a house anytime soon/get married/have kids? If you're single and renting and plan to keep doing that for awhile, then you could conceivably take flyover and pay off your debt in 10 years and still have just under $2,000 a month left over each year to cover other expenses. You wouldn't be saving much and would have to be fairly frugal, but we're not talking ramen level.

That said, if you are that young and aren't so tied down, you should also realize that you might like living in NYC more than you currently think you would. Your hours will probably be worse, but it's likely that your future career options will be better. Not everyone gets the chance to live in NYC in his/her 20's with almost $50K a year in disposable income.

Finally, you mention offer rates at the flyover firm but not the NYC ones. You should consider other things that you would think about while weighing any firms against one another: firm stability, partner/associate relations, strength in the type of law you want to focus on (or opportunities to branch out if you're not yet sure), etc. This is largely a financial decision but in the end, if your gut is really leading you in a certain direction, go with that.

[Mr. Fancy]

First question: what is the offer rate at flyover state firm?? Getting no-offered is bad for your debt situation.

Next, you need to know what your income after federal/state/local taxes is going to be in both places, then look at the healthcare insurance cost of all the firms, the retirement fund contribution (if any), and compare COL (car vs. pub transportation, rent, groceries) to help you see what the real difference is in your ability to get out from under your debt. Maybe it's actually pretty close, maybe you can't afford to choose the flyover firm at this stage in your career.

OP here. Flyover has a very good offer rate. Not sure on the exact numbers. But they only hire a small number of SAs and intend to make offers to everyone.

NYC = take home is 98k. After Rent = 78k. Debt (10 yr repayment) = 50k

Flyover = take home is 65k. After Rent = 59k. Debt (25 yr repayment) = 47k

Food would be a lot cheaper in flyover. Big difference is 10 yr repayment vs 25 yr.

Your numbers seem a little off. How did you figure out rent (you left out other expenses....) and how is the debt a 10 year repayment at 50k and a 25 at 47? Also, at 50k a year how does it ever take 10 years to pay off 200k?

Sorry I didnt break that down. The numbers are what is left over, after I did the subtraction, so

NYC = take home is (160k-72K) = 98k leftover. After Rent = (98k-20k) = 78k leftover . Debt (10 yr repayment) = (78k - 38k) = 50k leftover
Flyover = take home is (88k - 23k) = 65k leftover. After Rent = (65k - 7k) = 59k leftover. Debt (25 yr repayment) = (59k - 12K) = 47k leftover

What am I missing besides food?

78 minus 38 equals 40, not 50.

[Anonymous User]

Health insurance (what is each firm kicking in?), car & car insurance (for flyover, assume none for NY), if one of the firms has retirement matching, should probably weigh that in favor of that firm.

I don't know what each firm kicks in for health insurance, but all the firms say it under their benefits. Flyover's NALP says 401k with "employer contribution". V75-100 firms just say 401k/IRA/other retirement plan with no employer contribution line.

[Anonymous User]

Health insurance (what is each firm kicking in?), car & car insurance (for flyover, assume none for NY), if one of the firms has retirement matching, should probably weigh that in favor of that firm.

I don't know what each firm kicks in for health insurance, but all the firms say it under their benefits. Flyover's NALP says 401k with "employer contribution". V75-100 firms just say 401k/IRA/other retirement plan with no employer contribution line.

In NYC, I think the "market" is for employers to pay 60% of your premium.

[Anonymous User]

Sorry it is supposed to read 78k-28k=50k.

[Anonymous User]

I had to make a similar decision a couple years ago, except the firm in my hometown area paid even less than $88K. I chose it anyway, and couldn't be happier. Being close to friends and family has been really valuable to me in terms of happiness, as has being at a firm with a more relaxed and friendly culture.

For me, being miserable for two or three years wasn't worth some extra money or being out of debt two or three years sooner.

[Anonymous User]

For me, being miserable for two or three years wasn't worth some extra money or being out of debt two or three years sooner.

Not OP, but I feel the same way.

[delusional]

I had to make a similar decision a couple years ago, except the firm in my hometown area paid even less than $88K. I chose it anyway, and couldn't be happier. Being close to friends and family has been really valuable to me in terms of happiness, as has being at a firm with a more relaxed and friendly culture.

For me, being miserable for two or three years wasn't worth some extra money or being out of debt two or three years sooner.

I hope to be faced with an analogous decision, fortunately my home market has a bigger legal market and pays just a tier below 160.

I disagree with the above post, though, because happiness is not black and white and life is long. Choosing a NY firm for three years is not three years in prison, and it means twenty years (not "two or three") of not being worried about debt. Twenty years is a damn long time to have to sweat over changing jobs, unemployment, unpaid leave, etc. Carrying all that debt will affect whether you can buy a house, pay for a wedding, go on an exotic vacation. Work in NYC and at the very least, make a substantial dent in the student loans - try paying 50K a year and every bonus dollar. Maybe you'll like NY more than you expect. Maybe you'll race out after three years having knocked off 3/4 of your debt. Either way, it will make the next 25 years a lot easier.

[gulcregret]

Such biased advice in this thread, take it with a grain of salt. Obviously none of us know you well enough to give you great advice. First, you would be eligible for IBR, everyone is, but not for loan forgiveness, unless you still have not paid off your loans after 25 years.

You say you value friends and family a lot and that you didn't come to school to be a millionaire. Do you value friends and family more than money, generally? Either way, you are going to make a good living and have money to spend. Do you think you would like to get out of debt sooner or are you cool with delaying it a bit if you have the ability to live comfortably in your home state?

The benefit of doing NYC is not only being able to pay off debt sooner, it's your career 5-10 years from now. If you are in the flyover doing some sort of civil litigation, that may all you are able to do for your career. You might find yourself unable to move to government or business or even to other firms. That would be something I would want to find out. Having more options is the biggest plus of starting at a more reputable firm.

Also, all this theory about paying off debt while living in NYC is just that, theory. Everyone on here thinks its so easy to see 50k in expendable income and be like, "yeah, just toss it at the debt." No, that's not what happens, unless you are very disciplined. Maybe you can do it, maybe you can't. But at the same time, that money can go to living a sick life, if you have the time to travel and hang out with friends.

There is a lot to think about in this situation. You should definitely not let this message board affect your decision much. Consult with people who really know you and ask attorneys at both firms hard questions (exit options, time off, hours and face time requirements). If you have offers at both places, it should not be a problem to get all the HR packets regarding benefits.

Finally, I know pf plenty of students who graduated with me who took NYC or DC over hometown markets as 2Ls and then got jobs in their respective hometown markets as 3Ls.

[Anonymous User]

Follow your heart. It seems like you really want to work at flyover but you are letting the money tempt you.

[TrialLawyer16]

Also, all this theory about paying off debt while living in NYC is just that, theory. Everyone on here thinks its so easy to see 50k in expendable income and be like, "yeah, just toss it at the debt." No, that's not what happens, unless you are very disciplined. Maybe you can do it, maybe you can't. But at the same time, that money can go to living a sick life, if you have the time to travel and hang out with friends.

You know, I think this is a very good point. I've been guilty of this thinking at times myself. Most people, and I know for a fact that I, would not make work hard to put themselves in the position to make that kind of money and not spoil themselves at least a little bit.

[wuduhel]

Go NYC and wear Tom Ford for a few years. You may never get the chance again. Besides, flyover probably doesn't have Pinkberry. Think about that.

[Anonymous User]

Finally, I know pf plenty of students who graduated with me who took NYC or DC over hometown markets as 2Ls and then got jobs in their respective hometown markets as 3Ls.

I just want to second that. I go to a t-14, did my 2L SA this summer at a vault firm in nyc, and just accepted an offer from a firm in the midwest near family/friends. Going this route would give you a chance to see if you actually enjoy working in nyc. That being said, I would only do this if you are truly undecided. Getting an offer for a permanent position as a 3L (having not summered at the firm) isn't easy. If you did a 2L SA at a big firm in new york, then you have a good shot if there are positions available. But that's not guaranteed. It worked out for me, but I did get a ton of 'we're waiting to hear back from our summer associates but we will definitely be back in touch if there are still spots available' emails from firms. They'll want you if there is room, but the economy is a bitch.