The Vale of Tears (3L Job Hunting) (No advice for 0/1/2Ls) Forum

[lolwat]

Same caveat as previous poster regarding not being in this situation.

1) How long is it reasonable to ask a small firm to wait while you consider their offer?

One or two weeks is usually reasonable. Just ask for some time to make an informed decision given how important of a decision it is. When I was still interviewing, if I had an offer from a firm that I wasn't prepared to accept immediately, I was fully intending on saying something like "Hey, I'm really interested and appreciate the offer; could I have a couple weeks just to wrap up the other interviews I already have going on?"

(As a side note, obviously you've already done your research on your potential opportunities, but "small firm" doesn't necessarily mean you're going to an inferior place.)

It's usually also reasonable to let firms know you have an offer deadline coming up. But people have posted mixed comments about that--sometimes it gets you a rejection because they can't move at your pace. Sometimes it gets your timetable moved up or just gets you an offer.

I don't know how much longer I can keep this up. Just got a reject letter that I seemed to have a really good shot at, with my only disadvantage being I have no connection to the midwest. I now have nothing and it's been a year since I finished school. I am currently working on fellowship, but that will be ending in a few months and the place I am working at treats me horribly. I am looking at the possibility of finishing the fellowship without a job lined up, meaning no more income and therefore unable to afford living anywhere. Going back home would be a death sentence. In all truth, I am more and more certain that if I end my fellowship and current lease without a job lined up, suicide is the best solution rather than drag out this pain or settle for a life of failure after all the hard work I put in, especially as the opportunities that seem to become available seem to only get worse with time.

Just gotta keep pushing. It's not easy and it took me an entire year of applying and talking to people before I landed something (about 4 months after my previous job ended). I had a stack of between 50 and 100 hard-copy rejection letters (on top of all the e-mailed ones & silence). It sucked ass. I think it's perfectly OK to feel like this every once in a while (although the suicide bit is not a good thing) but don't stay in this mindset too long. Send out 5-10 applications a day for a little while, take a day or two off, and send out more. Just keep doing it.

[champ33]

I don't know how much longer I can keep this up. Just got a reject letter that I seemed to have a really good shot at, with my only disadvantage being I have no connection to the midwest. I now have nothing and it's been a year since I finished school. I am currently working on fellowship, but that will be ending in a few months and the place I am working at treats me horribly. I am looking at the possibility of finishing the fellowship without a job lined up, meaning no more income and therefore unable to afford living anywhere. Going back home would be a death sentence. In all truth, I am more and more certain that if I end my fellowship and current lease without a job lined up, suicide is the best solution rather than drag out this pain or settle for a life of failure after all the hard work I put in, especially as the opportunities that seem to become available seem to only get worse with time.

Hey man, that is absolutely not the answer. There is so much more to life than the stress of this profession. Do not for a second equate inability to find a legal position with personal failure, and even more so do not for a second equate this early struggle with a "life" of failure. You will absolutely find something eventually. I think it is way too easy to get into a bad mental place with all of the unrealistic pressure put on us by ourselves and third parties while we try to get started in this profession, let alone this world. Try to look at the people around you who care about you, and realize that finding a job, which will happen eventually, is only a very small part of this life. With all that said, getting a job is secondary if you are really having thoughts like that. You should absolutely call a hotline or speak to a therapist about what you are feeling. They will be able to help you far more than I or anyone on here can.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know how much longer I can keep this up. Just got a reject letter that I seemed to have a really good shot at, with my only disadvantage being I have no connection to the midwest. I now have nothing and it's been a year since I finished school. I am currently working on fellowship, but that will be ending in a few months and the place I am working at treats me horribly. I am looking at the possibility of finishing the fellowship without a job lined up, meaning no more income and therefore unable to afford living anywhere. Going back home would be a death sentence. In all truth, I am more and more certain that if I end my fellowship and current lease without a job lined up, suicide is the best solution rather than drag out this pain or settle for a life of failure after all the hard work I put in, especially as the opportunities that seem to become available seem to only get worse with time.

Don't say that man. Talk to someone, seriously.

[Anonymous User]

I don't know how much longer I can keep this up. Just got a reject letter that I seemed to have a really good shot at, with my only disadvantage being I have no connection to the midwest. I now have nothing and it's been a year since I finished school. I am currently working on fellowship, but that will be ending in a few months and the place I am working at treats me horribly. I am looking at the possibility of finishing the fellowship without a job lined up, meaning no more income and therefore unable to afford living anywhere. Going back home would be a death sentence. In all truth, I am more and more certain that if I end my fellowship and current lease without a job lined up, suicide is the best solution rather than drag out this pain or settle for a life of failure after all the hard work I put in, especially as the opportunities that seem to become available seem to only get worse with time.

Hey man, that is absolutely not the answer. There is so much more to life than the stress of this profession. Do not for a second equate inability to find a legal position with personal failure, and even more so do not for a second equate this early struggle with a "life" of failure. You will absolutely find something eventually. I think it is way too easy to get into a bad mental place with all of the unrealistic pressure put on us by ourselves and third parties while we try to get started in this profession, let alone this world. Try to look at the people around you who care about you, and realize that finding a job, which will happen eventually, is only a very small part of this life. With all that said, getting a job is secondary if you are really having thoughts like that. You should absolutely call a hotline or speak to a therapist about what you are feeling. They will be able to help you far more than I or anyone on here can.

I've been in therapy for years and at this job hunt since striking out from OCI the first time. I feel pretty logical about choosing suicide if things don't turn around by summer. Before I had hope, but now I have an actual deadline of when the shit hits the fan. Of course all parties are concerned. My parents thinking moving back home and taking the CA bar may help things, but can't explain how that will improve anything since I am applying for anything anywhere. Going and living at home would make things worse, which would have to do once my lease is up and have no income, since not in a major city so would not even have volunteer or networking opportunities as well as what little support network I do have here, let alone even locations to work doc review or whatever. After all this work and graduating from a CCN, I just can't feel like continuing on working doc review or shit law and feeling like a failure. I've already lost so much in part due to my job situation, I can't stand to keep feeling like this and losing even more.

[NYstate]

Where do you live? Why would going home be so terrible?

Don't give up yet. Hiring around the holidays just doesn't happen.

[Anonymous User]

I'm the anon with the question about the small firm offer. But first:

To the person contemplating suicide, I knew someone close to me in a very similar situation during undergrad. They had gotten into such a mess personally and academically that suicide seemed like a better option than dealing with the mess. You didn't make a mess of your life, it's just a sucky job market, but the feelings of panic and failure are similar. The suicide attempt was unsuccessful for my friend and as a result the person was able to take a semester off, live at home, and put their life back together. I think for driven people, they literally have to feel almost suicidal before they can step off the rotating wheel of their circumstances and get the help they need. My friend is more resilient and tougher now. And happy. A semester off from school, which seemed like the worst thing, ended up actually being a very good thing. Suicide attempts are often a desperate cry for help for people who feel like they can't ask for help. The problem is that sometimes suicide attempts work, and a life is gone forever. You may not ever intend to actually step over that line, but if you get to close to it the suicidal feelings can take you over. And even when suicide attempts don't work, they cause a world of hurt and confusion for the people who love you. Your comment that going home would be a death sentence makes me think there's not a support network. But if there is a support network, even a humbling, awkward, difficult one, I sincerely urge you to make use of it. If you need to set the weight that's on your shoulders down for awhile, it really, really, really will be ok. If you were smart enough to get into law school you're smart enough to get your life back together, even if it takes awhile. If you don't have a place or people to go to for help, consider moving to a cheap city where there's steady doc review work. It often pays about $20-$25/hour. It's numbingly boring but easy. Get your paycheck and a tiny, cheap apartment, find a way to see a therapist (try the local bar association), and then figure out what you can do to make things better (pro bono work, finding a non-legal job, whatever). I understand how bitter and crushing this process is, being in it, but if you feel like you would rather die than not have a legal job, finding a legal job won't solve everything in the long run. Think about getting help, please, please please. And I know this sounds cheesy, but if you can find ways to cope right now, things that make you happy and calm even when everything is going to shit, whether it's cooking or exercise or your friends or meditation or therapy or volunteering or family or what have you, you will be set to cope with stress and setbacks for life. You may feel like you had certain expectations from friends or family that you didn't meet, hence the revulsion to perceived "failure." But any people who are worth two shits admired you not because of law school or certain job prospects, but because of the qualities you have as a person that put you in that position in the first place. Really bad luck in a bad job market doesn't wipe out those qualities. So remember those qualities. Literally make a list. Ask people you love to remind you. And then use those qualities to cope with the uncertainty and stress of this situation and build a path out of them. You need to pay minimum student loans without defaulting (that can be $0 or close to it), feed yourself, and a few other minimal obligations. As long as you don't wreck your credit score or your health, nothing is irreparable and there's time to figure out the rest (and even things like credit scores are fixable and not worth dying for). There are years of trials and tribulations and surprises and successes ahead, and it would be stupid not to see what you can make happen in your life, even if it takes adjusting some expectations and redefining success. What do you have to lose by accepting your circumstances, being brave and giving it your all to get out of the place where you're in? And there could be so much to gain. It sounds like you're pretty close to bottom emotionally, so I bet finding some acceptance of your situation will bring you a good deal of peace and perspective. You really can get to a place where life is on the balance enjoyable and satisfying. You don't have anything to lose by trying, and potentially a whole lot to gain. All that said, please seek help immediately if your thoughts of suicide EVER become concrete. It really does get better.

Re: the big firm/small firm debate:
Thanks so much lolwat and NYState. I will ask the small firm for about two weeks if it comes to that. It does seem like there are drawbacks and benefits to raising the small firm offer with the big firm. I am going to keep thinking about it and then see what happens. While I am being honest about being willing to renege on the small firm I don't do so lightly and would strongly prefer to avoid that situation if possible. For possibly the first time ever I won't mind if the small firm takes their sweet time to get back to me after the interview. I also feel somewhat hopeful that news of some sort could come from the company or big firm early next week. It seems like a lot of people are still on vacation this week. When I heard from the small firm with what sounded like a likely-ish offer yesterday, I sent an attorney at the big firm a short e-mail with a (reasonable to ask) follow-up question and also sent the recruiter a short note just expressing my continued interest, acknowledging that things might still take awhile as attorneys and staff are busy after the holiday, but saying I would appreciate an update on the hiring process when she is able to give one. If I hear back from either the recruiter or partner it might help me decide how promising the big firm is and thus whether to let them know I have another offer. Test balloons. And to lolwat I'm not averse to small firm work because of the work itself, the colleagues, or the clients. All enjoyable. But the future successful career track (basically going solo, owning a business, chasing down clients for bills) puts me off a bit and the salary would make it very hard to service my debt and take good care of my family for the first few years and maybe more. It just seems like a big firm offers a) salary and b) some flexibility to make a variety of career choices down the road. Thanks again.

[NYstate]

Yes my post above was too quick because I thought maybe the person contemplating suicide was around and would post.

You may think that no one cares about you, that is just part of the depression that you are feeling. I care about you and I don't even know you. I want you to live and not give up on life. Just think about how the people in your life will feel. If you don't have a support network, then you can create one. You just have to know that life will get better. It may not seem like it, but it will be better.

Lawyers define themselves by status so much that it is incredibly destructive. Look at all the people who define themselves by their firm's Vault ranking and their bonus. What happens to those people when they lose their job? You can't have all you seelf-esteem tied up with your job.

It doesn't help that the general public has no understanding of the state of legal hiring.

[Anonymous User]

Yes my post above was too quick because I thought maybe the person contemplating suicide was around and would post.

You may think that no one cares about you, that is just part of the depression that you are feeling. I care about you and I don't even know you. I want you to live and not give up on life. Just think about how the people in your life will feel. If you don't have a support network, then you can create one. You just have to know that life will get better. It may not seem like it, but it will be better.

Lawyers define themselves by status so much that it is incredibly destructive. Look at all the people who define themselves by their firm's Vault ranking and their bonus. What happens to those people when they lose their job? You can't have all you seelf-esteem tied up with your job.

It doesn't help that the general public has no understanding of the state of legal hiring.

I'm just really tired of this struggle. I was hoping things would improve, but it seems that things keep getting worse and I have less and less people on the way. I know I shouldn't define myself by my job (have had multiple years of therapy and hospital for that), but it is so difficult to feel good when I keep getting rejection after rejection no matter how hard I try and nothing seems to improve regardless of what I do and feeling like a drain on my family. I know suicide would hurt so many people, esp after seeing a friend from the hospital succeed. It just feels worse living a life of failure, esp once this fellowship ends I know Columbia will have completely written me off.

[Anonymous User]

Brother I have known a few suicides in my time and I can promise you that unless your family is abnormally psychotic, it is impossible for you to drain, disappoint, or damage your family in life as badly as you would by choosing death. It rips a hole in a parent's heart that is never, ever filled.

I get that it helps vent a little steam to joke or ideate about it, but talk to someone. If money is an issue, talk to a religious person or a hotline or /r/suicidewatch or whatever. Talk to us. I don't care; just don't let that thought sink in as a valid option.

[worldtraveler]

Yes my post above was too quick because I thought maybe the person contemplating suicide was around and would post.

You may think that no one cares about you, that is just part of the depression that you are feeling. I care about you and I don't even know you. I want you to live and not give up on life. Just think about how the people in your life will feel. If you don't have a support network, then you can create one. You just have to know that life will get better. It may not seem like it, but it will be better.

Lawyers define themselves by status so much that it is incredibly destructive. Look at all the people who define themselves by their firm's Vault ranking and their bonus. What happens to those people when they lose their job? You can't have all you seelf-esteem tied up with your job.

It doesn't help that the general public has no understanding of the state of legal hiring.

I'm just really tired of this struggle. I was hoping things would improve, but it seems that things keep getting worse and I have less and less people on the way. I know I shouldn't define myself by my job (have had multiple years of therapy and hospital for that), but it is so difficult to feel good when I keep getting rejection after rejection no matter how hard I try and nothing seems to improve regardless of what I do and feeling like a drain on my family. I know suicide would hurt so many people, esp after seeing a friend from the hospital succeed. It just feels worse living a life of failure, esp once this fellowship ends I know Columbia will have completely written me off.

Man I know it's rough for you right now but please reach out and talk to a friend, a family member, or even someone on this forum would be happy to talk to you and let you vent. You are not your job. Even if you end up coming out of the vale with your dream job, that does not define you and there is so much more that matters besides your job title and salary. And if you have people in your life telling you otherwise, they are assholes.

[JusticeJackson]

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[NYstate]

Brother I have known a few suicides in my time and I can promise you that unless your family is abnormally psychotic, it is impossible for you to drain, disappoint, or damage your family in life as badly as you would by choosing death. It rips a hole in a parent's heart that is never, ever filled.

I get that it helps vent a little steam to joke or ideate about it, but talk to someone. If money is an issue, talk to a religious person or a hotline or /r/suicidewatch or whatever. Talk to us. I don't care; just don't let that thought sink in as a valid option.

You aren't a failure because you don't have a job. You have to be sure that your depression isn't coloring everything. I'm not saying that it isn't tough, I am saying that dying for a job is so stupid. My family member committed suicide and we suffer greatly for it. You can never get a chance to fix it with your family if you die. You can imagine how the holidays are for us - yes we go with our traditions, but a huge hole is always there. I was once in a cab and the driver was telling me about his daughter who had everything going for her, but she couldn't see it, and she killed herself. For years after that, every time he saw a girl about her age and size, he would look- thinking it might be her. Even though he knew it wasnt, he kept unconsciously thinking that she was there. His grief was so great that he was telling me, just a passenger, about it, because he thought he saw a pedestrian that looked like her. You can't fix that kind of pain if you are dead.

I think that if you commit suicide you are giving up on all of the good things that are waiting for you in life. All the friends and experiences and maybe even a partner you might find. You can't just throw the chances for the good things away because of a job. Who knows what else may come up for you. You have to believe that there are good things out there, even if it doesn't seem likely. You have to try to imagine good things, not just bad things all the time.

I'm getting ready to leave the country, but if you PM me I will try to respond. There are people here who care about you. If you are in New York there is the lawyers assistance program through the bar association. And I think that the Riverside Church has counseling too. The people at St. John the Divine are good to talk too as well. I know one of the people there is a lawyer and works with lawyers - his name is Randy Sloan. (I think he is still there) He organizes the Episcopal reception for lawyers in May.

Just fight for yourself and for your life. Be strong - you can do it. I believe in you and so do all the people who post here. So don't give up.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody think its a good idea to consolidate a Perkins loan (with the school) with other Fed loans (grad plus, etc.) to take advantage of PAYE? There seems to be no other way to lower monthly payments for Perkins?

[gwuorbust]

Anybody think its a good idea to consolidate a Perkins loan (with the school) with other Fed loans (grad plus, etc.) to take advantage of PAYE? There seems to be no other way to lower monthly payments for Perkins?

I did this and it cut $50 off my monthly payment.

[Anonymous User]

Anybody think its a good idea to consolidate a Perkins loan (with the school) with other Fed loans (grad plus, etc.) to take advantage of PAYE? There seems to be no other way to lower monthly payments for Perkins?

I did this and it cut $50 off my monthly payment.

Word. Do you know if you already have PAYE for your other loans (Grad Plus, etc), when you consolidate the Perkins loan, will the Perkins loan automatically be subject to PAYE or do you have to reapply for PAYE after you consolidate? This is a life saver for a fellow Valer'.

[NYstate]

I know this is a no advice thread - but I'm wondering. Would you guys advise 2Ls without SAs or anything lined up for the summer to drop out before next semester? At what point is it better advice to tell people that they are not/may not going to have the career they wanted? I just hesitate to tell them bad news, but I honestly don't know what advice is best to give.

So I am not posting anything.

[rad lulz]

m

[hiima3L]

I know this is a no advice thread - but I'm wondering. Would you guys advise 2Ls without SAs or anything lined up for the summer to drop out before next semester? At what point is it better advice to tell people that they are not/may not going to have the career they wanted? I just hesitate to tell them bad news, but I honestly don't know what advice is best to give.

So I am not posting anything.

Depends on debt, school, other personal facts (ie do you have a crim law background? do you have connected lawyers in the family?)

This.

In general, it's a combination (in order of importance) of (1) debt; (2) school and class rank; (3) interests; (4) connections/networking ability/personality.

But, of course, no one really listens. I've dissuaded some people from going to law school altogether, but I have yet to convince anyone to drop out. A few I remember talking to graduated in 2013, and I wonder if they wish they had heeded my advice. One dude, who graduated in 2013 (and is still jobless), said to me the other day "I really didn't believe you when you were telling me how bad the legal market is."

[JusticeJackson]

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[jarofsoup]

I know this is a no advice thread - but I'm wondering. Would you guys advise 2Ls without SAs or anything lined up for the summer to drop out before next semester? At what point is it better advice to tell people that they are not/may not going to have the career they wanted? I just hesitate to tell them bad news, but I honestly don't know what advice is best to give.

So I am not posting anything.

Depends on debt, school, other personal facts (ie do you have a crim law background? do you have connected lawyers in the family?)

Don't drop out. Especially if your grades are decent. There will be more positions(I interviewed for a vault firm for a SA position during finals week Spring semester, but didn't get it) that will pop up b/f summer.

When you do not get an SA position it does not mean you will not get a job. It just means that there is not a clear path to a job. It becomes random. I know someone who got a job at a large firm a week b/f the bar exam.

I am a weird case though. I have never really had a job outside of the legal services industry. So, I kind of do not really have an alternative career path.

[NYstate]

I know this is a no advice thread - but I'm wondering. Would you guys advise 2Ls without SAs or anything lined up for the summer to drop out before next semester? At what point is it better advice to tell people that they are not/may not going to have the career they wanted? I just hesitate to tell them bad news, but I honestly don't know what advice is best to give.

So I am not posting anything.

Depends on debt, school, other personal facts (ie do you have a crim law background? do you have connected lawyers in the family?)

Don't drop out. Especially if your grades are decent. There will be more positions(I interviewed for a vault firm for a SA position during finals week Spring semester, but didn't get it) that will pop up b/f summer.

When you do not get an SA position it does not mean you will not get a job. It just means that there is not a clear path to a job. It becomes random. I know someone who got a job at a large firm a week b/f the bar exam.

I am a weird case though. I have never really had a job outside of the legal services industry. So, I kind of do not really have an alternative career path.

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't clear in my question. I have a job. I was wondering whether to advise people to drop out if they don't have something for their 2L summer. I am way more negative about the legal profession than most people (even on TLS)and I think that a good number of the people on this forum who are applying really shouldn't go in the first place. Maybe seeing some people become so depressed and struggling when searching for work has really affected me. The worst part is when people feel shame and blame themselves for things that are outside their control. So I was thinking about advising people to consider dropping out as a reasonable alternative.

But, I think people won't listen anyway so there isnt much point. And plenty of people in this thread have eventually found something. So it isn't impossible. Maybe the best approach is to try to give good job search advice.

[sparty99]

I know this is a no advice thread - but I'm wondering. Would you guys advise 2Ls without SAs or anything lined up for the summer to drop out before next semester? At what point is it better advice to tell people that they are not/may not going to have the career they wanted? I just hesitate to tell them bad news, but I honestly don't know what advice is best to give.

So I am not posting anything.

Depends on debt, school, other personal facts (ie do you have a crim law background? do you have connected lawyers in the family?)

Don't drop out. Especially if your grades are decent. There will be more positions(I interviewed for a vault firm for a SA position during finals week Spring semester, but didn't get it) that will pop up b/f summer.

When you do not get an SA position it does not mean you will not get a job. It just means that there is not a clear path to a job. It becomes random. I know someone who got a job at a large firm a week b/f the bar exam.

I am a weird case though. I have never really had a job outside of the legal services industry. So, I kind of do not really have an alternative career path.

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't clear in my question. I have a job. I was wondering whether to advise people to drop out if they don't have something for their 2L summer. I am way more negative about the legal profession than most people (even on TLS)and I think that a good number of the people on this forum who are applying really shouldn't go in the first place. Maybe seeing some people become so depressed and struggling when searching for work has really affected me. The worst part is when people feel shame and blame themselves for things that are outside their control. So I was thinking about advising people to consider dropping out as a reasonable alternative.

But, I think people won't listen anyway so there isnt much point. And plenty of people in this thread have eventually found something. So it isn't impossible. Maybe the best approach is to try to give good job search advice.

No. You should just shut your mouth. If they are a 2L they are half way through the program. Let them be.

[worldtraveler]

I would assume anyone who would flat out tell me to drop out is an asshole. Let people make their own choices.

[NYstate]

I would assume anyone who would flat out tell me to drop out is an asshole. Let people make their own choices.

Yes, I can see that you guys are correct. Thanks for the advice.

[Pretzel_Logic]

I didn't get a 2L summer job until spring break. It's still early.

Still in the Vale, still trying to stay afloat. Meh.

To the person considering suicide: please, please go talk to someone. Don't let depression lock you away.