Which offer would you take? Forum

[Anonymous User]

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[thesealocust]

A&P or PH. Cadwalader seems to have a deserved reputation for being a suboptimal place to be a young associate.

[Anonymous User]

And, at least according to TLS sources, PH has been no offering people I believe. So...enjoy A&P?

[Anonymous User]

A&P or PH. Cadwalader seems to have a deserved reputation for being a suboptimal place to be a young associate.

Is it because of its reputational issues? I feel like its more of a rumor. Any other reasons you would choose ap or ph?

[Anonymous User]

And, at least according to TLS sources, PH has been no offering people I believe. So...enjoy A&P?

Consistently? Do you know how many?
And also does anyone know what PH's or AP's strenths or weaknesses are?

[Anonymous User]

PH is strong for labor and employment.

Are you interested in litigation or corporate?

[Anonymous User]

PH is strong for labor and employment.

Are you interested in litigation or corporate?

To be honest, i dont know... I am interested in both. But in relation to finance?
Would then any of these be a better fit for finance related work?

[Anonymous User]

Come on TLSers ... I need to make this decision really soon, please!

[thesealocust]

A&P or PH. Cadwalader seems to have a deserved reputation for being a suboptimal place to be a young associate.

Is it because of its reputational issues? I feel like its more of a rumor. Any other reasons you would choose ap or ph?

If it's a rumor, it's a rumor that has been propagated by everyone I have known to have worked there or worked with attorneys from there.

[LawIdiot86]

I would go with PH. CWT is a lesser choice for a number of reasons and AP isn't as diversified as PH. Also, NY isn't A&P's HQ, where PH NY is spread pretty evenly over three major offices.

[Anonymous User]

PH is strong for labor and employment.

Are you interested in litigation or corporate?

To be honest, i dont know... I am interested in both. But in relation to finance?
Would then any of these be a better fit for finance related work?

Finance I'd go with Cadwalader. Also anecdotally I think its bad reputation is very overblown and dated.

[Anonymous User]

Want to begin by mentioning that I'm a rising 2L who has done a CB with Cadwalader (but no offer yet), so take the below with a grain of salt.

From what I hear, Cadwalader's reputation may be a bit (but only a bit) dated. A lot of their "screamer" partners have either retired or left the firm, and a senior associate told me morale is up significantly from 4-5 years ago. They are a very "eat-what-you-kill"-type firm, so there is quite a bit of competition over assignments (at the associate level) and clients (at the partner level). Some personalities thrive in that environment; some do not. If you manage to attach yourself to the right partners early on in your career, it seems to be a great place to work-- blue-chip clients, top-tier finance/cap markets work, appears to be on solid financial footing, competitive bonuses, etc. But you really have to be ambitious and proactive about getting the right work to succeed in that environment, and many law students aren't.

I should also mention that their business model is (was?) built off attracting laterals from lockstep compensation firms with significant books of business, and some of their partners are truly legends in the field. But the reverse side of that, of course, is that partnership prospects are relatively slimmer than at its peer firms.

I'm not sure I'd take an offer with them if I got one, but I'd seriously consider it, and I have offers from more highly-ranked and peer firms.

[Anonymous User]

I would go with PH. CWT is a lesser choice for a number of reasons and AP isn't as diversified as PH. Also, NY isn't A&P's HQ, where PH NY is spread pretty evenly over three major offices.

I might be wrong but it seemed like PH is all about labor and employment. And all other practice areas started rather recently. So I am not sure how attractive the exit options would be... thoughts?

[Anonymous User]

A&P or PH. Cadwalader seems to have a deserved reputation for being a suboptimal place to be a young associate.

Is it because of its reputational issues? I feel like its more of a rumor. Any other reasons you would choose ap or ph?

On my callback there an associate claimed he lied on his resume and then cursed up a storm.

[Blindmelon]

A&P or PH. Cadwalader seems to have a deserved reputation for being a suboptimal place to be a young associate.

Agreed. I liked A&P's vibe, but also hear good things about PH, but I've never been there (they're maybe less stable? unsure).

[Anonymous User]

I don't know much about CWT and AP, but PH has no debt and runs a pretty conservative ship financially, something to consider I guess. Although there are the reports of no offers... If you're unsure if you want to stay in NY, I think PH is a good bet because it seems pretty strong in more markets than CWT. I know nothing about AP nationally, so hopefully someone else can speak to their national strength.

[Anonymous User]

I heard that PH summer works are made-up assignments, with a week-long orientation (idling away time).
Anyone knows about this?

[Anonymous User]

A&P or PH. Cadwalader seems to have a deserved reputation for being a suboptimal place to be a young associate.

Is it because of its reputational issues? I feel like its more of a rumor. Any other reasons you would choose ap or ph?

If it's a rumor, it's a rumor that has been propagated by everyone I have known to have worked there or worked with attorneys from there.

People I interviewed there all told me that they love CWT and don't understand why it has such heinous reputation. And I really liked the people I met there... But people are not the only factor, so

Anyone has an idea about exit options with respect to each firms?

[Anonymous User]

I heard that PH summer works are made-up assignments, with a week-long orientation (idling away time).
Anyone knows about this?

PH allegedly no-offered a quarter of their NYC summer class and plenty of summers at various other offices. Not sure how many people get no-offered at CWT or AP but that's a factor worth finding out about. My friend there this summer did get an offer but was miserable--working ALL the time (think all-nighters). Also yes, there was a big strange mock-memo assignment they had.

[Anonymous User]

Previously worked at PH; posted this in another thread and I think it'd be helpful here:

The PH firmwide "fake memo" has been going on for years. Basically, there is no expectation or requirement to do any client work during the first week of the summer. Monday-Wednesday is basically all orientation and long lunches. On Wednesday afternoon, they have a writing workshop where the PH format for different documents is discussed, and this "fake" assignment is given, which is to be worked on during Thursday and Friday of that first week. The assignment is just asking each summer to write a memo to a partner using provided cases. Everyone knows that it's not for a client; the firm just wants to see how well you write, which considering how much you write as an associate, it's not an unreasonable position for the firm to take. I personally found it pretty easy to do, and you shouldn't be worried about it unless you actually are a terrible writer. A few weeks after the assignment is due you meet with one of the firm's senior partners to discuss it. This is the only "fake" assignment you have.

As for the no-offers, while definitely unfortunate for those being affected, if you look at the past few year's NALP forms, you'll see that PH typically no-offers ~5 out of ~100 firmwide summer associates. Ever since 2009 they have conservatively hired summers in order to be able to give offers to everyone, but they clearly will no-offer you if there is a fit or work product issue, and they do not shy away from that fact by giving cold offers. The no-offers are not based on economics (the difference between 95 new associates and 100 is negligible at best), but merely based on the summer's work and fit with the firm. Sorry if you're upset that PH isn't like some other biglaw firms that give 100% offers year after year (even if some are cold offers), but you should have know that going in by doing basic research.

Also, at least in the NY office, PH is NOT labor/employment-centric. The vast majority of lawyers in NY are litigation or corporate, with real estate behind them in 3rd. Labor/employment and tax are far behind those three.

[Anonymous User]

PH is strong for labor and employment.

Are you interested in litigation or corporate?

To be honest, i dont know... I am interested in both. But in relation to finance?
Would then any of these be a better fit for finance related work?

Finance I'd go with Cadwalader. Also anecdotally I think its bad reputation is very overblown and dated.

I worked there two summers ago and in my opinion the reputation was neither dated or overblown.

[Anonymous User]

PH is strong for labor and employment.

Are you interested in litigation or corporate?

To be honest, i dont know... I am interested in both. But in relation to finance?
Would then any of these be a better fit for finance related work?

Finance I'd go with Cadwalader. Also anecdotally I think its bad reputation is very overblown and dated.

I worked there two summers ago and in my opinion the reputation was neither dated or overblown.

So do you still work at CWT? What are exit options like compared to other two firms?

[Anonymous User]

Look at Chambers to see what the rankings are for the NY corporate departments. That should allow you to make an educated guess on how good the exit options are.

A&P has a good vibe if you are a nerdy, reserved type. They require first years to start out doing general corporate, which means taking assignments from all corporate departments instead of being assigned exclusively to M&A, Corp Fin, etc. Personally, I don't think this is very good in terms of training. I mean, you'll eventually settle into one practice group and learn some skills but it seems like it would hamper the opportunity to exit earlier.

[Anonymous User]

Finance I'd go with Cadwalader. Also anecdotally I think its bad reputation is very overblown and dated.

I worked there two summers ago and in my opinion the reputation was neither dated or overblown.

So do you still work at CWT? What are exit options like compared to other two firms?

No I don't, I didn't work there for my 2L summer. I'm basing my opinion on talking to associates, them having almost no homegrown partners, firing associates during the summer (with little reason given according to them) while other left voluntarily. It appeared that half the people I met at the NY office were trying to get out. Maybe it's that way everywhere, but my firm this summer (albeit in a different market) was completely different. Yes, we worked hard but there wasn't constant talk about how best to leave the firm.

[Anonymous User]

Does anyone know if a&p or cwt makes its SA to work on some kind of made up assignments? Or anything special to be noted?