SLS OCI 2012 Forum

[Anonymous User]

So many variables. Luckily, I can confidently say that I am below median (1 H).

Not doing so hot percentage wise (35 interviews plus numerous mass mails, currently 1 CB and I'm striking out in my secondary-home market). Still have about 8 or so firms to hear back from, but at this stage, I'm not placing my bets on them.

To separate me from the other anons, I'll take the moniker of Sidewinder.

[Anonymous User]

So many variables. Luckily, I can confidently say that I am below median (1 H).

Not doing so hot percentage wise (35 interviews plus numerous mass mails, currently 1 CB and I'm striking out in my secondary-home market). Still have about 8 or so firms to hear back from, but at this stage, I'm not placing my bets on them.

Yikes. Sorry to hear that. I have two H's and I currently have 0 callbacks from 40 screening interviews. Luckily I have a couple callbacks from mass mailing my home secondary market, so I'm not into killself territory quite yet, but I'm still freaking out pretty bad. I think it's pretty clear that those who said that SLS is "safe" ITE have no idea what they are talking about.

[BAK123]

So many variables. Luckily, I can confidently say that I am below median (1 H).

Not doing so hot percentage wise (35 interviews plus numerous mass mails, currently 1 CB and I'm striking out in my secondary-home market). Still have about 8 or so firms to hear back from, but at this stage, I'm not placing my bets on them.

To separate me from the other anons, I'll take the moniker of Sidewinder.

I'm not saying this to make you feel worse because you will find a job and go on to have a great career. However, I'm an absolute disbelief that someone from Stanford Law is having a hard time finding a job? This is the number two law school in the country? Honestly, I'm not saying this to make anybody feel bad about their situation. But, how is that possible? I guess this is a moment of the curtain being pulled back but I just assumed that everyone at Yale and Harvard and Stanford had their choice of jobs.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, I can say I have no clue why so many firms rejected me. Some of the firms I knew were going to reject me just due to grades, but many of them (particularly in my home-market), were surprising. I can honestly say that most, if not nearly all of my interviews went pretty well. None had any awkward moments, lulls, or me saying anything stupid. They were all very smooth, fun, and light-hearted interviews, with the exception of the DA's office which was a bit more intense. I'm guessing that the firms I applied for just had small class sizes, tough competition, and maybe I had weaker credentials than others (K-JD).

I am coming out of this with a better understanding with how difficult the legal market is in this economy. And your statement did not make me feel any worse/bad, so its all good.

-Sidewinder.

[Anonymous User]

I had a rough time in DC. Went 3 for 12 on callbacks. No word on offers yet.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, I can say I have no clue why so many firms rejected me. Some of the firms I knew were going to reject me just due to grades, but many of them (particularly in my home-market), were surprising. I can honestly say that most, if not nearly all of my interviews went pretty well. None had any awkward moments, lulls, or me saying anything stupid. They were all very smooth, fun, and light-hearted interviews, with the exception of the DA's office which was a bit more intense. I'm guessing that the firms I applied for just had small class sizes, tough competition, and maybe I had weaker credentials than others (K-JD).

I am coming out of this with a better understanding with how difficult the legal market is in this economy. And your statement did not make me feel any worse/bad, so its all good.

-Sidewinder.

Do you know if people experience this at Harvard or Yale?

[Anonymous User]

It happens at every school. Particularly with students who, for one reason or another, can't differentiate themselves. Without a strong plus factor such as good grades, diversity, a dedicated interest in an in-demand practice group, relevant work experience, etc., it is difficult to secure a callback. Keep in mind who your competition is. There are no slouches at SLS, and firms simply have a limited # of callback slots.

The question becomes, then, what should you do if you lack such a plus factor? Targeting less sought-after firms/markets, really selling one of your other strengths, reaching out to SLS alum and other personal networks, and mass mailing seem to be some good approaches. Also be aware that firms issue callbacks and offers in waves, moving to the next wave if and when the previous wave fails to yield the expected number of accepted offers. So don't lose hope.

[Anonymous User]

So many variables. Luckily, I can confidently say that I am below median (1 H).

Not doing so hot percentage wise (35 interviews plus numerous mass mails, currently 1 CB and I'm striking out in my secondary-home market). Still have about 8 or so firms to hear back from, but at this stage, I'm not placing my bets on them.

To separate me from the other anons, I'll take the moniker of Sidewinder.

I'm not saying this to make you feel worse because you will find a job and go on to have a great career. However, I'm an absolute disbelief that someone from Stanford Law is having a hard time finding a job? This is the number two law school in the country? Honestly, I'm not saying this to make anybody feel bad about their situation. But, how is that possible? I guess this is a moment of the curtain being pulled back but I just assumed that everyone at Yale and Harvard and Stanford had their choice of jobs.

I'm the other anonymous poster who currently has 0 callbacks after 40 screeners. And honestly, if I had read my own story two months ago, I would have called flame on it. I expected it to be rough, but I had no idea it was going to be this rough. Granted, there are a bunch of firms that still haven't gotten back to me, but I'm not expecting much at this point. To be fair, I had a couple things working against me. I have an advanced degree in a non-legal field and very strong ties to a region that is a long distance from any major legal market, so I probably look like a serious flight risk. I knew this going in so I bid very conservatively, signed up for as many empty interviews slots as I could, and mass mailed every NALP firm with an office anywhere near my home region. But I'm still somewhat shocked that I didn't get a single callback out of OCI. Now all I can do is hope that one of the callbacks in my home market pans out. If it doesn't, I'm giving very serious thought to dropping out.

The really scary thing is that OCS tells me that I'm not the only person in this boat. Maybe it's just 1-2 other people with terrible grades and they are just saying it to make me feel better, but they made it sound like a substantial number of people either have no callbacks or 1-2 callbacks that already resulted in dings. It's definitely looking to me like no law school in the country is "safe" any more other than maybe Yale.

[Anonymous User]

It happens at every school. Particularly with students who, for one reason or another, can't differentiate themselves. Without a strong plus factor such as good grades, diversity, a dedicated interest in an in-demand practice group, relevant work experience, etc., it is difficult to secure a callback. Keep in mind who your competition is. There are no slouches at SLS, and firms simply have a limited # of callback slots.

The question becomes, then, what should you do if you lack such a plus factor? Targeting less sought-after firms/markets, really selling one of your other strengths, reaching out to SLS alum and other personal networks, and mass mailing seem to be some good approaches. Also be aware that firms issue callbacks and offers in waves, moving to the next wave if and when the previous wave fails to yield the expected number of accepted offers. So don't lose hope.

I like this answer. Its pretty much spot on, except I'm not sure if diversity (in my case as a MA) added much to my application. The career counselors also advised that diversity alone won't be your saving grace. I'm not giving up hope yet, since I have a few outside Government interviews lined up, and I may prefer those over the firm life. Still, has a competitive guy, OCI messes with your confidence. Which I didn't fully expect at Stanford, but hey, you play the cards you're given.

-Sidewinder

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone gotten DC offers yet?

[Anonymous User]

No one at SLS strikes out. Even in '09 Kramer made sure everyone had jobs. Now it's 2012. Spots will open up once your classmates begin to decline offers. Don't scare the SLS prospies, for whom I offer a few points of clarification:

First, having 2 or fewer H's is really rare---maybe 6-12 people tops, as most people cluster between 3-5 Hs. It's especially unusual b/c at SLS you get to pick your Spring schedule. If after Winter you have 0-1 Hs, you can elect a few more easy classes to get closer to median (~4Hs). Choosing Admin, Corps and ConLaw2---probably not best idea in that situation.

Second, even those with few H's can do well in big markets if they have a personality. A 2L friend w/ 2Hs got several V25 callbacks in NY and LA, and I can tell it's because she/he interviews well.

Bottom line: you have to try to strike out at SLS. You need to be unlucky with your Fall/Winter exams [or fail to study for them], bomb the Spring classes you hand-selected, apply only in the most competitive markets (SF/DC), interview poorly, and then fail to Rouse the attention of SLS's rapid support network of Professors, alumni and administrators.

In terms of private sector placement, I'll take SLS over its peers any day.

[Anonymous User]

No one at SLS strikes out. Even in '09 Kramer made sure everyone had jobs. Now it's 2012. Spots will open up once your classmates begin to decline offers. Don't scare the SLS prospies, for whom I offer a few points of clarification:

First, having 2 or fewer H's is really rare---maybe 6-12 people tops, as most people cluster between 3-5 Hs. It's especially unusual b/c at SLS you get to pick your Spring schedule. If after Winter you have 0-1 Hs, you can elect a few more easy classes to get closer to median (~4Hs). Choosing Admin, Corps and ConLaw2---probably not best idea in that situation.

Second, even those with few H's can do well in big markets if they have a personality. A 2L friend w/ 2Hs got several V25 callbacks in NY and LA, and I can tell it's because she/he interviews well.

Bottom line: you have to try to strike out at SLS. You need to be unlucky with your Fall/Winter exams [or fail to study for them], bomb the Spring classes you hand-selected, apply only in the most competitive markets (SF/DC), interview poorly, and then fail to rouse the attention of SLS's rapid support network of Professors, alumni and administrators.

In terms of private sector placement, I'll take SLS over its peers any day.

There is no way that 2Hs is bottom 5% of the class. Especially if, as you admit, 4Hs is the approximate median. I'd guess 2Hs is around bottom 1/3.

[Anonymous User]

Hi all,

SLS 2L.
I'm doing ~15 CBs (25% SF/Bay, 25% Boston, 50% NYC). Got about 20 CBs -- 30 screeners.
Grades were shitty (I think).
Offers are trickling in -- but generally I find that firms respond within 3-5 business days if favorable.

[Anonymous User]

Bottom line: you have to try to strike out at SLS. You need to be unlucky with your Fall/Winter exams [or fail to study for them], bomb the Spring classes you hand-selected, apply only in the most competitive markets (SF/DC), interview poorly, and then fail to rouse the attention of SLS's rapid support network of Professors, alumni and administrators.

This is not true.

[Anonymous User]

Grades are not the only (or even primary) reason people might strike out. And that comment about only 6-12 people having fewer than two H's is astoundingly wrong.

[Anonymous User]

8+ Hs w/ book prizes. did 12 screeners (all SF). 6 CBs and so far 2 offers: one offer took two business days, the other less than a day.

[Anonymous User]

I bid DC/LA evenly with ties to both. Also 8+ Hs with a book prize. Did 23 screeners and got 5 CBs. I was disappointed.

There are no easy classes, only non-gunner classes. Classes with less difficult or simply less material will be easier for everyone and won't change the curve. It's hard to 'game' the system.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone gotten DC offers yet?

also interested in this. i have heard that cleary gave at least one offer

also, I think it's a little too early to freak out - callback season isn't even done yet. as said above, a lot of people are likely on waitlists, and when other students start accepting offers spots will open up.

don't scare the new students off

[Anonymous User]

*Edited/Deleted. Eh, my post didn't really contribute much.

-Sidewinder.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone gotten DC offers yet?

also interested in this. i have heard that cleary gave at least one offer

also, I think it's a little too early to freak out - callback season isn't even done yet. as said above, a lot of people are likely on waitlists, and when other students start accepting offers spots will open up.

don't scare the new students off

Offer from sullivan & cromwell DC

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, I can say I have no clue why so many firms rejected me. Some of the firms I knew were going to reject me just due to grades, but many of them (particularly in my home-market), were surprising. I can honestly say that most, if not nearly all of my interviews went pretty well. None had any awkward moments, lulls, or me saying anything stupid. They were all very smooth, fun, and light-hearted interviews, with the exception of the DA's office which was a bit more intense. I'm guessing that the firms I applied for just had small class sizes, tough competition, and maybe I had weaker credentials than others (K-JD).

I am coming out of this with a better understanding with how difficult the legal market is in this economy. And your statement did not make me feel any worse/bad, so its all good.

-Sidewinder.

This is going to sound really douchey but I really am trying to help for your CBs (which WILL come eventually when people start declining offers): what kind of suit are you wearing?

If you answered "untailored, off-the-rack Jos A. Banks" or "a cheapo one I bought at Men's warehouse", please go to nordstrom's/brooks brothers now and buy a $400+ suit and get it tailored. I think people really underestimate how much your appearance really matters in the OCI process, especially if your grades are subpar. Either way, you spent $72,000 on an education to get you a job, why skimp on your interview suit?

[Anonymous User]

No one at SLS strikes out. Even in '09 Kramer made sure everyone had jobs. Now it's 2012. Spots will open up once your classmates begin to decline offers. Don't scare the SLS prospies, for whom I offer a few points of clarification:

First, having 2 or fewer H's is really rare---maybe 6-12 people tops, as most people cluster between 3-5 Hs. It's especially unusual b/c at SLS you get to pick your Spring schedule. If after Winter you have 0-1 Hs, you can elect a few more easy classes to get closer to median (~4Hs). Choosing Admin, Corps and ConLaw2---probably not best idea in that situation.

Second, even those with few H's can do well in big markets if they have a personality. A 2L friend w/ 2Hs got several V25 callbacks in NY and LA, and I can tell it's because she/he interviews well.

Bottom line: you have to try to strike out at SLS. You need to be unlucky with your Fall/Winter exams [or fail to study for them], bomb the Spring classes you hand-selected, apply only in the most competitive markets (SF/DC), interview poorly, and then fail to rouse the attention of SLS's rapid support network of Professors, alumni and administrators.

In terms of private sector placement, I'll take SLS over its peers any day.

I don't know if you are trolling or if you are really that clueless, but this is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin. First, the idea that nobody gets 2 H's or less is just absurd when only the top 30% can get H's in most classes. Simple math tells you that the only way you can get 6-12 people with 2 H's or less is if nobody gets more than 5-6 H's, which clearly is not the case.

Second, I studied my tail end off in every single one of my classes. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but it's really insulting to suggest that anyone who has below-median grades didn't study. I just made a couple dumb mistakes on a couple exams and my professors in the spring apparently didn't like my papers. I don't think I'm as smart as some of my classmates, but I'm not a slacker.

It's also wrong (not to mention insulting) to say that someone with a few H's can get callbacks if they "have a personality." Maybe I'm socially awkward or do something else to annoy interviewers, but I have done multiple mock interviews with OCS and they said that I'm fine. I also bid almost exclusively on less competitive New York firms with large class sizes because I knew my grades were subpar, and then I went on Symplicity every single night and signed up for as many unfilled interview slots as I could. I did well over 40 screeners when all was said and done. And I still struck out completely. Not even a single callback. Like I said, I think that my resume made me look like a flight risk, and that was a big part of my problem, but I'm still kind of shock about the whole thing. And OCS tells me that I'm far from the only person who got zero callbacks out of OCI.

And LOL at "SLS's rapid support network of professors, alumni and administrators." I'm starting to wonder if you are just a shill for the SLS administration. I have had multiple meetings with professors and administrators at SLS and I have tried e-mailing alumni as well. The only advice I get is, "Have you tried networking?" Gee, thanks so much. I never would have thought of that if you hadn't suggested it. I have a couple callbacks with my home secondary market as a result of mass mailing, but I did that entirely on my own. If I had to rely on OCS and other SLS resources, I would be completely screwed right now.

Bottom line: SLS is not safe; it is not even close to being safe. If you are below median, you're not in significantly better shape than you would be at any other top-tier law school. You better be prepared to hustle like crazy if you want to land a job, and there is a very real danger that you'll strike out completely. I also read Dean Kramer's reassuring e-mails where he claimed that SLS places just fine post-ITE, and I now know that was utter bullshit. Yes, I'm a little bitter and angry right now, because I feel like I have been lied to and swindled out of $70,000 because of hucksters like this previous poster who claimed that SLS is safe ITE. Had I know that below-median students have this much trouble I never would have gone to law school. Realistically, I'm probably going to drop out if nothing pans out in my home market. No sense in accumulating even more debt for a degree that won't get me a job. So I hope the SLS prospies are scared, because they should be. Attending any law school other than maybe Yale is a huge gamble right now.

[Anonymous User]

Honestly, I can say I have no clue why so many firms rejected me. Some of the firms I knew were going to reject me just due to grades, but many of them (particularly in my home-market), were surprising. I can honestly say that most, if not nearly all of my interviews went pretty well. None had any awkward moments, lulls, or me saying anything stupid. They were all very smooth, fun, and light-hearted interviews, with the exception of the DA's office which was a bit more intense. I'm guessing that the firms I applied for just had small class sizes, tough competition, and maybe I had weaker credentials than others (K-JD).

I am coming out of this with a better understanding with how difficult the legal market is in this economy. And your statement did not make me feel any worse/bad, so its all good.

-Sidewinder.

This is going to sound really douchey but I really am trying to help for your CBs (which WILL come eventually when people start declining offers): what kind of suit are you wearing?

If you answered "untailored, off-the-rack Jos A. Banks" or "a cheapo one I bought at Men's warehouse", please go to nordstrom's/brooks brothers now and buy a $400+ suit and get it tailored. I think people really underestimate how much your appearance really matters in the OCI process, especially if your grades are subpar. Either way, you spent $72,000 on an education to get you a job, why skimp on your interview suit?

Seriously, just stop. Those of us who struck out at OCI already feel like garbage, and implying that it is our own fault does not help. Sure, I wish I could retake a couple exams, and there are a few things that I said at interviews that I wish I could do over, but I don't think I made any fundamental mistakes. The biggest problem is that firms aren't interested in hiring people who are below median from SLS or anywhere else, and there is very little that can be done to help the 50% of the class that ends up below median.

[Anonymous User]

No one at SLS strikes out. Even in '09 Kramer made sure everyone had jobs. Now it's 2012. Spots will open up once your classmates begin to decline offers. Don't scare the SLS prospies, for whom I offer a few points of clarification:

First, having 2 or fewer H's is really rare---maybe 6-12 people tops, as most people cluster between 3-5 Hs. It's especially unusual b/c at SLS you get to pick your Spring schedule. If after Winter you have 0-1 Hs, you can elect a few more easy classes to get closer to median (~4Hs). Choosing Admin, Corps and ConLaw2---probably not best idea in that situation.

Second, even those with few H's can do well in big markets if they have a personality. A 2L friend w/ 2Hs got several V25 callbacks in NY and LA, and I can tell it's because she/he interviews well.

Bottom line: you have to try to strike out at SLS. You need to be unlucky with your Fall/Winter exams [or fail to study for them], bomb the Spring classes you hand-selected, apply only in the most competitive markets (SF/DC), interview poorly, and then fail to rouse the attention of SLS's rapid support network of Professors, alumni and administrators.

In terms of private sector placement, I'll take SLS over its peers any day.

I don't know if you are trolling or if you are really that clueless, but this is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin. First, the idea that nobody gets 2 H's or less is just absurd when only the top 30% can get H's in most classes. Simple math tells you that the only way you can get 6-12 people with 2 H's or less is if nobody gets more than 5-6 H's, which clearly is not the case.

Second, I studied my tail end off in every single one of my classes. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but it's really insulting to suggest that anyone who has below-median grades didn't study. I just made a couple dumb mistakes on a couple exams and my professors in the spring apparently didn't like my papers. I don't think I'm as smart as some of my classmates, but I'm not a slacker.

+1 same here, and we are not alone. I would say a more realistic estimate (and one which I saw in the 2011 SLS OCI forum) is 1/3 have 0-2 Hs, 1/3 have 2-4, and 1/3 have 5+.

[Anonymous User]

Bottom line: SLS is not safe; it is not even close to being safe. If you are below median, you're not in significantly better shape than you would be at any other top-tier law school. You better be prepared to hustle like crazy if you want to land a job, and there is a very real danger that you'll strike out completely. I also read Dean Kramer's reassuring e-mails where he claimed that SLS places just fine post-ITE, and I now know that was utter bullshit. Yes, I'm a little bitter and angry right now, because I feel like I have been lied to and swindled out of $70,000 because of hucksters like this previous poster who claimed that SLS is safe ITE. Had I know that below-median students have this much trouble I never would have gone to law school. Realistically, I'm probably going to drop out if nothing pans out in my home market. No sense in accumulating even more debt for a degree that won't get me a job. So I hope the SLS prospies are scared, because they should be. Attending any law school other than maybe Yale is a huge gamble right now.

Now you're the one who seems ridiculous. I'm sorry, but if you had 40 chances to sit down with people and interview, that's as much as you can ask for. That's something that not everyone can replicate, and frankly you (and all other students at SLS) are very fortunate to have so many opportunities. At a certain point it is on you to secure a job. I'm not agreeing with the idea that you (or other people who struck out, of which I know of none) are weird, stupid, didn't try, etc. But you are doing something "wrong" because there are a number of people with 0-2 Hs who have secured CBs at highly competitive firms. Without knowing you or knowing what you did in interviews, it's impossible to say what that is...but it's not only your grades that caused your difficulty and you most definitely are not in the same position as people who don't even get the chance to interview.