Preselect vs. Lottery Dynamics: Am I SOL? Forum

[Perseus_I]

Am I correct to say that callbacks in a preselect system are 100% dependent on interview performance whereas callbacks in a lottery system depend also on grades, resume, etc?

Is it also correct to say that a preselect system disadvantages introverted students who may pass the acceptability test (i.e. not socially retarded or aspie) but may be quite forgettable and fail to adequately take control of interviews that start out with "What can I tell you about the firm"?

I am possibly the most forgettable person you will ever meet. But I thought I would be ok because I am not really socially retarded, and I don't say inappropriate things, and I was only 1 of 15 students at my school to get 100% slotted for preselects (with no lotteries - according to CSO). But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen. I can avoid making mistakes, and I can be acceptable, but I am not going to stand out -- except maybe as one of dozens of students who are a little awkward but not fatally awkward and definitely one of the more quiet ones. Am I SOL for OCI?

Thoughts of dropping out at the end of this semester keep inevitably creeping in.

[ryanmot]

No, grades still matter for pre-selects. The better your grades the more wiggle room you for some awkward moments. (At least that's how people at my firm look at it).

[rad lulz]

I am possibly the most forgettable person you will ever meet. But I thought I would be ok because I am not really socially retarded, and I don't say inappropriate things, and I was only 1 of 15 students at my school to get 100% slotted for preselects (with no lotteries - according to CSO). But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen. I can avoid making mistakes, and I can be acceptable, but I am not going to stand out -- except maybe as one of dozens of students who are a little awkward but not fatally awkward and definitely one of the more quiet ones. Am I SOL for OCI?

Thoughts of dropping out at the end of this semester keep inevitably creeping in.

You sounds really awkward bro.

Learn how to interact socially bro

Also, both grades and interview matter.

[Perseus_I]

No, grades still matter for pre-selects. The better your grades the more wiggle room you for some awkward moments. (At least that's how people at my firm look at it).

So, since I got more preselects than interview spots, would you recommend declining all firms at which my grades would make me a reach at my school? I am thinking of knocking off S&C and Quinn Emmanuel and trying to replace them with a Gardere Wynn Sewell or a Sutherland, Houston.

[jd20132013]

chill out bro

this is the definition of being an over analytic law student

just do your best and stop thinking about things you can't control

[rad lulz]

No, grades still matter for pre-selects. The better your grades the more wiggle room you for some awkward moments. (At least that's how people at my firm look at it).

So, since I got more preselects than interview spots, would you recommend declining all firms at which my grades would make me a reach at my school? I am thinking of knocking off S&C and Quinn Emmanuel and trying to replace them with a Gardere Wynn Sewell or a Sutherland, Houston.

Gardere might be suspicious that you're only using them as a "safety." Don't do this.

[Perseus_I]

I am possibly the most forgettable person you will ever meet. But I thought I would be ok because I am not really socially retarded, and I don't say inappropriate things, and I was only 1 of 15 students at my school to get 100% slotted for preselects (with no lotteries - according to CSO). But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen. I can avoid making mistakes, and I can be acceptable, but I am not going to stand out -- except maybe as one of dozens of students who are a little awkward but not fatally awkward and definitely one of the more quiet ones. Am I SOL for OCI?

Thoughts of dropping out at the end of this semester keep inevitably creeping in.

You sounds really awkward bro.

Learn how to interact socially bro

Also, both grades and interview matter.

Not really awkward, as far as law students go. I certainly have friends. Been through several practice interviews with CSO, and they did not spot any major problems. I also did the mock interview thing with big law interviewers as a 1L, and they also did not spot any major problems. I think my biggest issue is being quiet, not being awkward - especially in 20 minute interviews where an interviewer may not have even read my resume. I really don't have much to say when the interviewer starts out dominating the conversation, so I really think they just forget me.

[sambeber]

But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen.

What exactly do you find to be so problematic or intimidating about this? I'm actually not being sarcastic; if you explain a little bit, maybe people can offer tips that can help you get the conversation flowing.

[Perseus_I]

But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen.

What exactly do you find to be so problematic or intimidating about this? I'm actually not being sarcastic; if you explain a little bit, maybe people can offer tips that can help you get the conversation flowing.

Well, if they haven't even read my resume, and they start out with that, the best I can do is ask a question about the firm. Right? Then they spend a ton of time talking and then ask for more questions. At what point do I bring the conversation back to me? A more extroverted student might be able to do this. I mean, what am I supposed to know about Big Laws a 2L? So how would I even have a clue what would make me a good fit for the firm? Associates work 110 hours a week, and I think I am a hard worker? Great. Now what? The best I can come up with is stuff on Chambers & Associates and stuff about practice groups. Tying that back to me--someone who has only a general idea what "Capital Markets" is--is not something I have been able to do in pre OCI interviews. If they're not going to actually ask questions--because they haven't read my resume--I, the subject of the interview, typically do not come up at all.

The problem in my practice interviews has been that the mock interviewer asks me "behavioral questions" or questions about my resume or interests, and I have mostly practiced answering those types of questions and getting a conversation flowing about that. Getting a conversation started based on "what can I tell you about the firm?" seems really difficult.

[thesealocust]

Am I correct to say that callbacks in a preselect system are 100% dependent on interview performance whereas callbacks in a lottery system depend also on grades, resume, etc?

No. Both systems are highly dependent on credentials.

Often firms are required or choose to preselect far more candidates than are reasonably qualified credential wise. Other times, as has been pointed out, better credentials just make a candidate more likely to get a callback assuming they don't screw up - while more moderate credentials, even amongst the pre-selected, will only get callbacks with a strong interview.

[Perseus_I]

Am I correct to say that callbacks in a preselect system are 100% dependent on interview performance whereas callbacks in a lottery system depend also on grades, resume, etc?

No. Both systems are highly dependent on credentials.

Often firms are required or choose to preselect far more candidates than are reasonably qualified credential wise. Other times, as has been pointed out, better credentials just make a candidate more likely to get a callback assuming they don't screw up - while more moderate credentials, even amongst the pre-selected, will only get callbacks with a strong interview.

So, once again, is this a reason to replace "reaches" with others that are not reaches? So I do not have to have a superlative interview to get a callback? I want to make sure I only get interviews where I can get callbacks just by passing the social acceptability test, not having to impress anyone vs. other students with far more impressive personalities.

[gyarados]

But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen.

What exactly do you find to be so problematic or intimidating about this? I'm actually not being sarcastic; if you explain a little bit, maybe people can offer tips that can help you get the conversation flowing.

Well, if they haven't even read my resume, and they start out with that, the best I can do is ask a question about the firm. Right? Then they spend a ton of time talking and then ask for more questions. At what point do I bring the conversation back to me? A more extroverted student might be able to do this. I mean, what am I supposed to know about Big Laws a 2L? So how would I even have a clue what would make me a good fit for the firm? Associates work 110 hours a week, and I think I am a hard worker? Great. Now what? The best I can come up with is stuff on Chambers & Associates and stuff about practice groups. Tying that back to me--someone who has only a general idea what "Capital Markets" is--is not something I have been able to do in pre OCI interviews. If they're not going to actually ask questions--because they haven't read my resume--I, the subject of the interview, typically do not come up at all.

The problem in my practice interviews has been that the mock interviewer asks me "behavioral questions" or questions about my resume or interests, and I have mostly practiced answering those types of questions and getting a conversation flowing about that. Getting a conversation started based on "what can I tell you about the firm?" seems really difficult.

Dude, you're overthinking everything. Just be chill and chat about the firm and let the conversation go where it wants to.

[rad lulz]

Am I correct to say that callbacks in a preselect system are 100% dependent on interview performance whereas callbacks in a lottery system depend also on grades, resume, etc?

No. Both systems are highly dependent on credentials.

Often firms are required or choose to preselect far more candidates than are reasonably qualified credential wise. Other times, as has been pointed out, better credentials just make a candidate more likely to get a callback assuming they don't screw up - while more moderate credentials, even amongst the pre-selected, will only get callbacks with a strong interview.

So, once again, is this a reason to replace "reaches" with others that are not reaches? So I do not have to have a superlative interview to get a callback? I want to make sure I only get interviews where I can get callbacks just by passing the social acceptability test, not having to impress anyone vs. other students with far more impressive personalities.

Ironically, S&C is less likely to care about fit that Gardere.

[ryanmot]

No, grades still matter for pre-selects. The better your grades the more wiggle room you for some awkward moments. (At least that's how people at my firm look at it).

So, since I got more preselects than interview spots, would you recommend declining all firms at which my grades would make me a reach at my school? I am thinking of knocking off S&C and Quinn Emmanuel and trying to replace them with a Gardere Wynn Sewell or a Sutherland, Houston.

You'd have to speak with your career services. I don't know how those firms view or cut off grades at your school.

Interview Tip: Make sure you have good eye contact; it's important.

[HeavenWood]

I am possibly the most forgettable person you will ever meet. But I thought I would be ok because I am not really socially retarded, and I don't say inappropriate things, and I was only 1 of 15 students at my school to get 100% slotted for preselects (with no lotteries - according to CSO). But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen. I can avoid making mistakes, and I can be acceptable, but I am not going to stand out -- except maybe as one of dozens of students who are a little awkward but not fatally awkward and definitely one of the more quiet ones. Am I SOL for OCI?

Thoughts of dropping out at the end of this semester keep inevitably creeping in.

You sounds really awkward bro.

Learn how to interact socially bro

No offense, but this. Practice, practice, practice. Also, it shouldn't be hard to come up with questions to ask at the end. You should be formulating some stock/firm-specific ones ahead of time anyway.

[Perseus_I]

I am possibly the most forgettable person you will ever meet. But I thought I would be ok because I am not really socially retarded, and I don't say inappropriate things, and I was only 1 of 15 students at my school to get 100% slotted for preselects (with no lotteries - according to CSO). But redirect a conversation that starts out asking for questions about the firm? Forget it. Not going to happen. I can avoid making mistakes, and I can be acceptable, but I am not going to stand out -- except maybe as one of dozens of students who are a little awkward but not fatally awkward and definitely one of the more quiet ones. Am I SOL for OCI?

Thoughts of dropping out at the end of this semester keep inevitably creeping in.

You sounds really awkward bro.

Learn how to interact socially bro

No offense, but this. Practice, practice, practice. Also, it shouldn't be hard to come up with questions to ask at the end. You should be formulating some stock/firm-specific ones ahead of time anyway.

Definitely doing lots of practice. I think I've gotten pretty honest feedback, from practioners and judges, nonetheless. I have heard "too quiet" sometimes, and "spice it up," but I have never heard "too awkward" or "not enough eye contact" or "never say that." Also, the problem is not coming up with questions for the end. The problem is coming up with questions for the beginning that can direct the course of the interview.

I talked to a friend from out-of-state who claims I have a "thick southern accent." I did not realize this, but could this be a turn-off to NYC big firms?