Around 3.55 at Penn; Bid List Forum

[Anonymous User]

Please give me advice on my bid list. Around a 3.55 GPA from Penn (which is probably around the top quarter but I'm not sure). Want to do litigation. These are all NY offices. Any firms that don't belong here? And any firms that are conspicuously missing? Also, I am not sure how exactly I should order the firms. Thanks in advance!

1. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (NY)
2. Latham & Watkins (NY)
3. Weil, Gotshal & Manges (NY)
4. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft (NY)
5. White & Case (NY)
6. WilmerHale (NY)
7. dla piper (NY)
8. Proskauer (NY)
9. clifford chance US (NY)
10. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett (NY)
11. freshfields bruckhaus deringer (NY)
12. Linklaters (NY)
13. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy (NY)
14. Cahill Gordon & Reindel (NY)
15. Allen & Overy LLP (NY)
16. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton (NY)
17. Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman (NY)
18. Dechert (NY)
19. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman (NY)
20. Chadbourne & Parke (NY)
21. Shearman & Sterling (NY)
22. Kaye Scholer (NY)
23. Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler (NY)
24. Stroock & Stroock & Lavan (NY)
25. Schulte Roth & Zabel (NY)
26. Hughes Hubbard & Reed (NY)
28. Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel (NY)
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld (NY)

[FlightoftheEarls]

Please give me advice on my bid list. Around a 3.55 GPA from Penn (which is probably around the top quarter but I'm not sure). Want to do litigation. These are all NY offices. Any firms that don't belong here? And any firms that are conspicuously missing? Also, I am not sure how exactly I should order the firms. Thanks in advance!

1. Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom (NY)
2. Latham & Watkins (NY)
3. Weil, Gotshal & Manges (NY)
4. Cadwalader, Wickersham & Taft (NY)
5. White & Case (NY)
6. WilmerHale (NY)
7. DLA Piper (NY)
8. Proskauer (NY)
9. Clifford Chance US (NY)
10. Simpson Thacher & Bartlett (NY)
11. Freshfields Bruckhaus Deringer (NY)
12. Linklaters (NY)
13. Milbank, Tweed, Hadley & McCloy (NY)
14. Cahill Gordon & Reindel (NY)
15. Allen & Overy LLP (NY)
16. Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton (NY)
17. Kasowitz Benson Torres & Friedman (NY)
18. Dechert (NY)
19. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman (NY)
20. Chadbourne & Parke (NY)
21. Shearman & Sterling (NY)
22. Kaye Scholer (NY)
23. Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler (NY)
24. Stroock & Stroock & Lavan (NY)
25. Schulte Roth & Zabel (NY)
26. Hughes Hubbard & Reed (NY)
28. Kramer Levin Naftalis & Frankel (NY)
29. Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld (NY)

The huge ones off the top of my head are:

Paul Weiss
Quinn
DPW
Kirkland
Debevoise
Gibson Dunn
. . .

I mean, look at this list and adjust your bids accordingly - you're missing half of the largest litigation players out there, especially with top 25% grades: http://www.chambersandpartners.com/USA/Editorial/71155. I'd also think Cravath would be an outside shot worth throwing a bid at.

[dpk711]

This thread is of interest to me tagged.

[Anonymous User]

Paul Weiss
Quinn
DPW
Debevoise

Would I have a solid chance to get these firms? What do you guys think of Boies, waste of a bid or worth a shot?

[buckilaw]

Shouldn't you be able to bid Skadden and Latham lower?

[Anonymous User]

Shouldn't you be able to bid Skadden and Latham lower?

I've been told conflicting advice. Some have told me to bid them high since they have more slots and everyone bids on them. Others have told me otherwise.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Paul Weiss
Quinn
DPW
Debevoise

Would I have a solid chance to get these firms? What do you guys think of Boies, waste of a bid or worth a shot?

If you're top quarter, I'd hope so. The way people talk about Penn's placement on these boards, I'd expect you to be able to land them from median.

ETA: Okay, that was kind of a dig at Penn's fanboyism on TLS. But in reality, Paul Weiss and Quinn would certainly be doable from Michigan, and you'd be in the running for DPW and Debevoise as well (although those two would still probably be a slight reach from our 25%). The only NYC firms that I think are legitimately out for top 25% at any T13 would be Wachtell, S&C, and Cravath.

[Anonymous User]

OP here,
so does conventional wisdom say to bid on firms with many 2L slots like Skadden and Weil later on the list?

[PennBull]

Where are your #27 and #30?

[HeavenWood]

Paul Weiss
Quinn
DPW
Debevoise

Would I have a solid chance to get these firms? What do you guys think of Boies, waste of a bid or worth a shot?

If you're top quarter, I'd hope so. The way people talk about Penn's placement on these boards, I'd expect you to be able to land them from median.

ETA: Okay, that was kind of a dig at Penn's fanboyism on TLS. But in reality, Paul Weiss and Quinn would certainly be doable from Michigan, and you'd be in the running for DPW and Debevoise as well (although those two would still probably be a slight reach from our 25%). The only NYC firms that I think are legitimately out for top 25% at any T13 would be Wachtell, S&C, and Cravath.

I just can't get over how incredibly relevant this post is!

[OutCold]

Paul Weiss
Quinn
DPW
Debevoise

Would I have a solid chance to get these firms? What do you guys think of Boies, waste of a bid or worth a shot?

You always have a shot at Boies, but not enough that I would take the bid away from something I am more competitive at. Based on grade distributions, I think your top 20 is fairly conservative. It all depends on risk tolerance, but Cadwalader, dla piper, and Proskauer are all relative safeties for you. Latham and Skadden are great reaches because they are less fussy about grades. I would bid Latham high and Skadden a bit lower, maybe around 10. Latham has a 25% successful bid rate from last year vs Skadden at around 45% (don't have it in front of me, so I apologize if that number is off).

You might have a shot at Paul Weiss and Debevoise. Maybe Quinn. Certainly a better shot than Boies I would imagine. DPW probably not, but almost everyone that wants DPW at OCI gets it based on bid success rate, so you might want to throw it in further down the list.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Paul Weiss
Quinn
DPW
Debevoise

Would I have a solid chance to get these firms? What do you guys think of Boies, waste of a bid or worth a shot?

If you're top quarter, I'd hope so. The way people talk about Penn's placement on these boards, I'd expect you to be able to land them from median.

ETA: Okay, that was kind of a dig at Penn's fanboyism on TLS. But in reality, Paul Weiss and Quinn would certainly be doable from Michigan, and you'd be in the running for DPW and Debevoise as well (although those two would still probably be a slight reach from our 25%). The only NYC firms that I think are legitimately out for top 25% at any T13 would be Wachtell, S&C, and Cravath.

I just can't get over how incredibly relevant this post is!

Hey, fuck me for trying to help somebody from a different school, right?

Clearly I don't know Penn's exact cutoffs, but I can extrapolate from a similar school to provide some idea as to each firm's selectivity. Besides, I read a thread the other day where people were saying Cravath used to semi-regularly hire to median at Penn, so I figured that Penn's elite NYC placement would be at least as solid as Michigan's.

[Anonymous User]

Where are your #27 and #30?

Any suggestions for me?

[Veyron]

Yah, OP has an outside shot at CSM.

[PennBull]

edit: RC fail

[PennBull]

Clearly I don't know Penn's exact cutoffs, but I can extrapolate from a similar school to provide some idea as to each firm's selectivity. Besides, I read a thread the other day where people were saying Cravath used to semi-regularly hire to median at Penn, so I figured that Penn's elite NYC placement would be at least as solid as Michigan's.

My understanding was that Penn is not more "elite" in placement than Michigan--we just get hired more.

In other words, same firms, but Penn has more students there than Michigan.

[HeavenWood]

Clearly I don't know Penn's exact cutoffs, but I can extrapolate from a similar school to provide some idea as to each firm's selectivity. Besides, I read a thread the other day where people were saying Cravath used to semi-regularly hire to median at Penn, so I figured that Penn's elite NYC placement would be at least as solid as Michigan's.

My understanding was that Penn is not more "elite" in placement than Michigan--we just get hired more.

In other words, same firms, but Penn has more students there than Michigan.

Exactly. When I implied basing a Penn student's chances on Michigan cutoffs, I wasn't being an elitist douchetruck. Rather, different class sizes/number of interview slots/bid selection processss/self selection patterns can make for sizeable discrepancies, even between peer schools.

[Anonymous User]

Clearly I don't know Penn's exact cutoffs, but I can extrapolate from a similar school to provide some idea as to each firm's selectivity. Besides, I read a thread the other day where people were saying Cravath used to semi-regularly hire to median at Penn, so I figured that Penn's elite NYC placement would be at least as solid as Michigan's.

My understanding was that Penn is not more "elite" in placement than Michigan--we just get hired more.

In other words, same firms, but Penn has more students there than Michigan.

Exactly. When I implied basing a Penn student's chances on Michigan cutoffs, I wasn't being an elitist douchetruck. Rather, different class sizes/number of interview slots/bid selection processss/self selection patterns can make for sizeable discrepancies, even between peer schools.

OP here, I am curious as to what kind of discrepancies there are, if any, between M and P.

[HeavenWood]

Clearly I don't know Penn's exact cutoffs, but I can extrapolate from a similar school to provide some idea as to each firm's selectivity. Besides, I read a thread the other day where people were saying Cravath used to semi-regularly hire to median at Penn, so I figured that Penn's elite NYC placement would be at least as solid as Michigan's.

My understanding was that Penn is not more "elite" in placement than Michigan--we just get hired more.

In other words, same firms, but Penn has more students there than Michigan.

Exactly. When I implied basing a Penn student's chances on Michigan cutoffs, I wasn't being an elitist douchetruck. Rather, different class sizes/number of interview slots/bid selection processss/self selection patterns can make for sizeable discrepancies, even between peer schools.

OP here, I am curious as to what kind of discrepancies there are, if any, between M and P.

As far as NYC firms go, I would think Penn students would have an advantage at some, Michigan students advantages at others, based off the factors above. I don't think there's much of a difference on an aggregate scale though.

[FlightoftheEarls]

Clearly I don't know Penn's exact cutoffs, but I can extrapolate from a similar school to provide some idea as to each firm's selectivity. Besides, I read a thread the other day where people were saying Cravath used to semi-regularly hire to median at Penn, so I figured that Penn's elite NYC placement would be at least as solid as Michigan's.

My understanding was that Penn is not more "elite" in placement than Michigan--we just get hired more.

In other words, same firms, but Penn has more students there than Michigan.

Exactly. When I implied basing a Penn student's chances on Michigan cutoffs, I wasn't being an elitist douchetruck. Rather, different class sizes/number of interview slots/bid selection processss/self selection patterns can make for sizeable discrepancies, even between peer schools.

That's fine. I would wager that our cutoffs are probably quite similar for the majority of these firms with minor fluctuations at a few firms in either direction. My point, however, was that if TLS' regurgitated truism that firms go deeper at Penn than at other T10 schools is true, then he should at the very least be competitive at those firms with top 25% grades. The only way my suggestions would be unhelpful would be if firms actually went deeper in Michigan's class, which I also don't have any reason to believe.

ETA: Also, I really don't want this to turn into a Michigan vs. Penn debate - they're both great schools that place well in NYC. What's important for OP is knowing that he has at least a shot at most of those firms, and they're all quality firms when it comes to NYC litigation.

[Younger Abstention]

You don't need to bid firms like dla piper (unless you want to work at dla piper for a particular reason other than as a safety, i.e. they have a great real estate practice; certainly nothing wrong with that firm).

[Anonymous User]

You don't need to bid firms like DLA Piper (unless you want to work at DLA Piper for a particular reason other than as a safety, i.e. they have a great real estate practice; certainly nothing wrong with that firm).

OP here,
You really think a firm like dla piper is a safety, meaning that as long as I get to do an interview and do decently on it, I will get a callback that will probably turn into an offer?

[Anonymous User]

You don't need to bid firms like DLA Piper (unless you want to work at DLA Piper for a particular reason other than as a safety, i.e. they have a great real estate practice; certainly nothing wrong with that firm).

OP here,
You really think a firm like DLA Piper is a safety, meaning that as long as I get to do an interview and do decently on it, I will get a callback that will probably turn into an offer?

I'm not Younger Abstention, but I would say there's no such thing as a guaranteed offer. You could be absolutely terrible in the interview; none of us can know that. The idea is that your grades would, all things being equal, get you past the grade threshold at that firm. No one here can speak to your other qualifications or lack thereof which would be what carries you from that point forward.

[Veyron]

^credited