HLS 2012 EIP Thread Forum

[094320]

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[GeePee]

How are you guys going about coming up with a coherent bid order strategy? Most of the firms I am looking at have had so many slots that they interviewed nearly everybody that bid (according to last year's EIP stats).. I basically only have 4-5 firms that need to be in my top 10 and at least one of those is a place that is fairly unlikely to hire me. Does bid order even matter for people not bidding NYC?

Idiots guide to creating a bid order:

1. Take OCS' 2011 EIP stats excel spreadsheet.
2. Create new column; label column "Bids per interview slot"
3. Click first row in that column, and enter: =[Whatever the column letter of the column for number of bids is]2/[Whatever the column letter of the column for number of interview slots is]2. Apply this formula to the entire column.
4. Highlight the entire column and right click on it. Sort in descending order.
5. Pick out your firms, with 1 being the highest firm on the list and 35 being the lowest.
6. Move up slightly any firms that you either (1) can't afford not to get an interview with, because your grades are poor and you need to bid conservatively, or (2) really want an interview with, paying attention to the aggressiveness of your bid order if you feel like you're defeating your efforts in (1), and move down slightly any firms where you don't really care if you get an interview. Also, feel free to account for predictions of trends in firm desirability (People last year were still really afraid of getting Latham'ed, while this year they're v10 (LOL) and another year removed from pwning associates, for example).

[AllTheLawz]

How are you guys going about coming up with a coherent bid order strategy? Most of the firms I am looking at have had so many slots that they interviewed nearly everybody that bid (according to last year's EIP stats).. I basically only have 4-5 firms that need to be in my top 10 and at least one of those is a place that is fairly unlikely to hire me. Does bid order even matter for people not bidding NYC?

Idiots guide to creating a bid order:

1. Take OCS' 2011 EIP stats excel spreadsheet.
2. Create new column; label column "Bids per interview slot"
3. Click first row in that column, and enter: =[Whatever the column letter of the column for number of bids is]2/[Whatever the column letter of the column for number of interview slots is]2. Apply this formula to the entire column.
4. Highlight the entire column and right click on it. Sort in descending order.
5. Pick out your firms, with 1 being the highest firm on the list and 35 being the lowest.
6. Move up slightly any firms that you either (1) can't afford not to get an interview with, because your grades are poor and you need to bid conservatively, or (2) really want an interview with, paying attention to the aggressiveness of your bid order if you feel like you're defeating your efforts in (1), and move down slightly any firms where you don't really care if you get an interview. Also, feel free to account for predictions of trends in firm desirability (People last year were still really afraid of getting Latham'ed, while this year they're v10 (LOL) and another year removed from pwning associates, for example).

Thanks for the solid advice... unfortunately that does little for me since I still end up with the Bids=interviews "problem" (i.e. 1) but Im a little wary of variability or the possibility of adjusted schedules. Problem is that I am URM with neither horrible nor good grades, good but not spectacular work experience, and I am bidding on two major secondary markets (think BOS/ATL/CHI/LA) with small class sizes plus a sprinkling of DC but little to no NYC. I guess I should use top bids on DC/NYC but then Im scared to miss out on any firms in the secondary markets given the relatively small class sizes.

[GeePee]

How are you guys going about coming up with a coherent bid order strategy? Most of the firms I am looking at have had so many slots that they interviewed nearly everybody that bid (according to last year's EIP stats).. I basically only have 4-5 firms that need to be in my top 10 and at least one of those is a place that is fairly unlikely to hire me. Does bid order even matter for people not bidding NYC?

Idiots guide to creating a bid order:

1. Take OCS' 2011 EIP stats excel spreadsheet.
2. Create new column; label column "Bids per interview slot"
3. Click first row in that column, and enter: =[Whatever the column letter of the column for number of bids is]2/[Whatever the column letter of the column for number of interview slots is]2. Apply this formula to the entire column.
4. Highlight the entire column and right click on it. Sort in descending order.
5. Pick out your firms, with 1 being the highest firm on the list and 35 being the lowest.
6. Move up slightly any firms that you either (1) can't afford not to get an interview with, because your grades are poor and you need to bid conservatively, or (2) really want an interview with, paying attention to the aggressiveness of your bid order if you feel like you're defeating your efforts in (1), and move down slightly any firms where you don't really care if you get an interview. Also, feel free to account for predictions of trends in firm desirability (People last year were still really afraid of getting Latham'ed, while this year they're v10 (LOL) and another year removed from pwning associates, for example).

Thanks for the solid advice... unfortunately that does little for me since I still end up with the Bids=interviews "problem" (i.e. 1) but Im a little wary of variability or the possibility of adjusted schedules. Problem is that I am URM with neither horrible nor good grades, good but not spectacular work experience, and I am bidding on two major secondary markets (think BOS/ATL/CHI/LA) with small class sizes plus a sprinkling of DC but little to no NYC. I guess I should use top bids on DC/NYC but then Im scared to miss out on any firms in the secondary markets given the relatively small class sizes.

If they interview everyone that bids, you don't really have a problem. As long as you're steering clear of the firms with the >2.0 interviews/slot, it should be fairly simple to engineer an effective bid list. You probably won't get every one of the firms that you bid on, but as long as you pick your top 10 as the 10 firms that you actually, really want, you should get all of those, and most of your others (if not all).

[Anonymous User]

I'm actually a current SA at Weil Boston. We're so busy this summer that none of the summer associates leave before 6:45pm and it's not unusual for us to work until 8 or 9pm! I love it there! But just to let you know, it's a small office; there are only five summers this year - 2 from HLS, 2 from BU and one from Suffolk. 4 of us are in corporate, 1 of us in litigation. I think there are 40 attorneys total, with an additional 7 laterals/first-years starting in October.

OCI tip: They are very picky about personality! I can't stress that enough. If you're from HLS, having below median grades won't stop you from getting a callback, but poor interviewing skills definitely will.

But don't let what I said deter you; I know for a fact they want more HLS students so bid, bid, bid!

I wish everyone the best of luck!

[Anonymous User]

Anyone have an idea of what kind of grades you need to be competetive at W&C and Covington D.C.?

Grip it and rip it,
John Daly

Bumping. Also I've heard rumors that W&C's interviews are unusually intense but don't know anything more, is there any truth to this?

Team Ramrod

[Anonymous User]

Okay, here's the tentative bid list I am putting together in no particular order yet. I suspect it may be too ambitious. I have three H/7P, though one P is from a seminar. Strong upward trend in that all the Hs were from the spring. Hoping for Boston, NY for safety.

The Boston firms are basically all of them, except ones that do only IP and some that don't pay market. The New York firms were chosen somewhat haphazardly, based on my gut feelings on a selectivity/quality ratio. I suspect that since NY is generally the safety market for me, the NY picks are too high. I welcome - nay, urge - feedback. What firms am I missing? What should I not bother bidding on?

Signed,

Justice Homes

Boston firms
Bingham McCutchen
Brown Rudnick
Choate, Hall & Stewart
Cooley
Dechert
Fish & Richardson
Foley & Lardner
Foley Hoag
Goodwin Procter
Goulston & Storrs
Gunderson Dettmer
Jones Day
K&L Gates
Latham & Watkins
Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo
Nutter, McClennen & Fish
Proskauer Rose
Ropes & Gray
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
Weil Gotshal & Manges
WilmerHale

New York Firms
Kirkland & Ellis
Weil Gotshal
Debevoise
Cleary
White & Case
Boies
MoFo
Fried Frank
Jones Day

Your name begins with an A?

[Anonymous User]

Okay, here's the tentative bid list I am putting together in no particular order yet. I suspect it may be too ambitious. I have three H/7P, though one P is from a seminar. Strong upward trend in that all the Hs were from the spring. Hoping for Boston, NY for safety.

The Boston firms are basically all of them, except ones that do only IP and some that don't pay market. The New York firms were chosen somewhat haphazardly, based on my gut feelings on a selectivity/quality ratio. I suspect that since NY is generally the safety market for me, the NY picks are too high. I welcome - nay, urge - feedback. What firms am I missing? What should I not bother bidding on?

Signed,

Justice Homes

Boston firms
Bingham McCutchen
Brown Rudnick
Choate, Hall & Stewart
Cooley
Dechert
Fish & Richardson
Foley & Lardner
Foley Hoag
Goodwin Procter
Goulston & Storrs
Gunderson Dettmer
Jones Day
K&L Gates
Latham & Watkins
Mintz, Levin, Cohn, Ferris, Glovsky and Popeo
Nutter, McClennen & Fish
Proskauer Rose
Ropes & Gray
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom
Weil Gotshal & Manges
WilmerHale

New York Firms
Kirkland & Ellis
Weil Gotshal
Debevoise
Cleary
White & Case
Boies
MoFo
Fried Frank
Jones Day

Your name begins with an A?

No. I can't imagine that bidding on NY and Boston is particularly rare though.

[AllTheLawz]

Has anyone else had meetings with OCS and the market consultants and found them all shockingly optimistic?? I expected at least some doom and gloom but they were all pretty much like go bananas, who needs a strategy.

[GeePee]

Anyone have an idea of what kind of grades you need to be competetive at W&C and Covington D.C.?

Grip it and rip it,
John Daly

Bumping. Also I've heard rumors that W&C's interviews are unusually intense but don't know anything more, is there any truth to this?

Team Ramrod

Depends. One interviewer last year put on the full court press, the other mostly threw softballs and tried to sell the firm. If you graded onto law review, hope for the latter, otherwise, the former is a better shot at a callback in the 7-8 H range.

Has anyone else had meetings with OCS and the market consultants and found them all shockingly optimistic?? I expected at least some doom and gloom but they were all pretty much like go bananas, who needs a strategy.

Honestly, it seemed like last year you had to do quite a bit wrong to strike out, and they're usually pretty good about telling you if you're in danger. As long as they see that they have a few less selective firms, you'll probably be okay, and I don't think that the advisers are actually wrong in telling you that you're probably fine to reach a bit. That said, it can be better for your own mental health during EIP to know that you have some more likely callbacks weaved in.

[Anonymous User]

Has anyone else had meetings with OCS and the market consultants and found them all shockingly optimistic?? I expected at least some doom and gloom but they were all pretty much like go bananas, who needs a strategy.

I did not think so. My bid list is above, and while most of what they said was not relevant to anything that I cared about, they certainly were not optimistic about the bid list.

Justice Homes

[Anonymous User]

So I had a question about OCS vs. TLS, and I considered starting a new thread, but I think I'll try it here first.

TLS says that the most important thing is odds - it's better to bid on a somewhat selective firm with a huge class than a unselective one with 7 summer associates. For example, there are V20s who historically have taken large portions of their class from median and OCS still calls them "selective firms". OCS recommends using firms in the lower rankings as safeties, since they are less selective, although they may only hire 5-7 summer associates.

TLS says that (leaving aside the so-prestigious-they're-douchy firms) Wachtell is super selective, SullCrom and Cravath somewhat less, and then the order is something like DPW, Paul Weiss, Cleary, Debevoise, Gibson Dunn, Kirkland. OCS seems to lump them all together.

TLS says that the main concern is getting a job, so use firms with big classes that aren't as selective as safeties. OCS says that you should choose firms that do what you want to do. In this case, there's a third party - me - and I say that what I want to do is get a job doing interesting work that will allow me some exit options.

I'm not sure if I should listen to my intuition, which leans more TLS, or to OCS, who theoretically has the experience and data to back up what they say. While I may think I'm right, I also have nightmares about not getting a job because I didn't listen to OCS.

What say you, TLS?

Justice Homes

[094320]

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[Anonymous User]

Can't you do a mix of both? We do have *35* bids.

Sure, but 1. I am bidding on two markets, and 2. even within a mix of the two, there are degrees - I can target Kirkland and reach for SullCrom on my standards, or I can target Fried Frank and reach for Kirkland on their standards. I don't think that I will end up utterly screwed if I do both, but I might feel like I'm leaving something on the table if I resort to using lower bids for firms like Schiff Hardin NY as "safeties".

Justice Homes

[094320]

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[fatduck]

tag

[TatteredDignity]

tag

One of the best #humblebrags I've seen in a while.

Dude just got in as a transfer.

[094320]

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[fatduck]

tag

Willl Mrs. Fatduck be moving with you? I hear she's lovely.

She is most lovely and will be there with

[ph14]

tag

Willl Mrs. Fatduck be moving with you? I hear she's lovely.

She is most lovely and will be there with

Congrats, that sure was quick.

[TatteredDignity]

tag

Willl Mrs. Fatduck be moving with you? I hear she's lovely.

She is most lovely and will be there with

You decided you'll go? Congrats! Hope to join you.

[delusional]

tag

I look forward to meeting you. Rarely is TLS royalty so un-anonymous.

[Anonymous User]

5 H's, 5 P's, DC focus?

1. Crowell and Moring
2. Goodwin Proctor
3. King and Spalding
4. Paul Hastings
5. foley hoag
6. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman
7. Paul Hastings
8. Gibson Dunn
9. Vinson and Elkins
10. Williams and Connolly
11. Debevoise and Plimpton
12. Steptoe and Johnson
13. Arnold and Porter
14. Morgan Lewis Bockius
15. Ropes and Gray
16. Morrison and Foerster
17. WilmerHale
18. Willkie Farr and Gallagher
19. Jenner and Block
20. Vinson and Elkins
21. Hunton & Williams
22. Covington and Burling
23. Fried Frank
24. O'Melveny and Myers
25. Fish & Richardson

[Anonymous User]

Probably too ambitious for DC - you have close to 0 shot at W&C and the slimmest of shots at places like Covington, Jenner DC, and Wilmer DC (which are all unusually grade-choosy). A&P and Gibson are also quite choosy but I know people with 5H's who have gotten jobs there so I don't think they're worth avoiding altogether. I don't think you'll strike out but you should probably replace the top of your list with firms like Wiley Rein and Venable if you're planning to go all-in on DC.

ETA: I'd also throw in Hogan & Kirkland, they are both great DC firms that will go down to the 5H range.

[Anonymous User]

5 H's, 5 P's, DC focus?

1. Crowell and Moring
2. Goodwin Proctor
3. King and Spalding
4. Paul Hastings
5. Foley Hoag
6. Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman
7. Paul Hastings
8. Gibson Dunn
9. Vinson and Elkins
10. Williams and Connolly
11. Debevoise and Plimpton
12. Steptoe and Johnson
13. Arnold and Porter
14. Morgan Lewis Bockius
15. Ropes and Gray
16. Morrison and Foerster
17. WilmerHale
18. Willkie Farr and Gallagher
19. Jenner and Block
20. Vinson and Elkins
21. Hunton & Williams
22. Covington and Burling
23. Fried Frank
24. O'Melveny and Myers
25. Fish & Richardson

Actually I'd say you have a good mix of firms in here -- firms like Crowell, Morgan Lewis, Vinson & Elkins, etc., are pretty reasonable with 5Hs. As long as your heart isn't set on the Covington, W&C, Jenner, Wilmer tier you'll be okay in DC (which is not to say you have no chance at that tier -- you just can't bank on having the kind of superstar interview that would vault you into callbacks).

You might also want to diversify your range to be a little more aggressive in the mid-range tier (A&P, O'Melveny) -- good DC offices that don't require HLR/all Hs. Paul Hastings/Debevoise/Paul Weiss DC get substantially less meaty work than their main offices, and many of the firms you have listed are clearly lesser players. I would read up on firm-specific practices and include some of Latham, Kirkland, Hogan, Mayer Brown, Cleary, McDermott, Patton Boggs, Akin Gump -- Latham/Kirkland/Hogan/Akin especially to supplement the middle tier.