HLS--trying to figure out markets Forum

[Anonymous User]

I'm trying to figure out how many Hs you need to safetly bid in the following markets:

D.C.
San Francisco
Los Angeles
Boston

What is a "highly competitive" firm that OCS talks about vaguely, but won't define?

I have a DS, 2 Hs, and 7 Ps, and am unsure 1) where I am on the curve and 2) which markets I should be bidding on and 3) if I should be bidding NYC.

Any help/info anybody has would be gratefully appreciated.

[ph14]

I'm trying to figure out how many Hs you need to safetly bid in the following markets:

D.C.
San Francisco
Los Angeles
Boston

What is a "highly competitive" firm that OCS talks about vaguely, but won't define?

I have a DS, 2 Hs, and 7 Ps, and am unsure 1) where I am on the curve and 2) which markets I should be bidding on and 3) if I should be bidding NYC.

Any help/info anybody has would be gratefully appreciated.

The information that gets passed around TLS is that 3 Hs is probably approximately median. So you are slightly above median. DC and SF are two of the more selective markets, I saw career services said to subtract a "virtual H" when you are bidding to these markets (and from what I have read on TLS, might be more difficult than that in DC if you don't have ties).

[Anonymous User]

At barely above median, I would avoid every market you've listed. At most, spend a 2-3 bids on each. But the bulk of your bids should be on NYC.

Almost any major firm is DC is likely out of the picture due to sheer selectivity. DC doesn't care about ties; it's similar to NYC in that regard.

The other markets are a little easier to crack, and if you have SIGNIFICANT ties, then you might gamble a little more on those markets. But none will be easier than NYC.

I can't speak LA/SF, but here's how I would list the most competitive firms in the other markets.

DC: Williams & Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale

Boston: Ropes & Gray

NYC: Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C

[Anonymous User]

At barely above median, I would avoid every market you've listed. At most, spend a 2-3 bids on each. But the bulk of your bids should be on NYC.

Almost any major firm is DC is likely out of the picture due to sheer selectivity. DC doesn't care about ties; it's similar to NYC in that regard.

The other markets are a little easier to crack, and if you have SIGNIFICANT ties, then you might gamble a little more on those markets. But none will be easier than NYC.

I can't speak LA/SF, but here's how I would list the most competitive firms in the other markets.

DC: Williams & Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale

Boston: Ropes & Gray

NYC: Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C

Based on last years results this is too conservative. DC is definitely tough and should be bid on cautiously but LA/SF will be fine as long as OP has some relevant ties (of course don't ignore NY entirely)...

As for the grades, OCS states that 2-3H range is medianish due to uncertainty in distrbution/ concentration of Hs. So 2H + a DS is definitely above median, even if not substantially so. As long as OP has decent interviewing skills he can target most markets that he likes/has ties to.

[delusional]

At barely above median, I would avoid every market you've listed. At most, spend a 2-3 bids on each. But the bulk of your bids should be on NYC.

Almost any major firm is DC is likely out of the picture due to sheer selectivity. DC doesn't care about ties; it's similar to NYC in that regard.

The other markets are a little easier to crack, and if you have SIGNIFICANT ties, then you might gamble a little more on those markets. But none will be easier than NYC.

I can't speak LA/SF, but here's how I would list the most competitive firms in the other markets.

DC: Williams & Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale

Boston: Ropes & Gray

NYC: Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C

If you are responding anonymously, it would be worthwhile to post your perspective.

FWIW, as a rising 2L, basing only on what I've heard from OCS, seen here, and a tiny bit of research, it seems like you're being really conservative. Sure, NYC is the easiest for someone at median, but the guy has a DS, and I find it hard to believe that median is limited to NY the way you say.

BTW, just as an odd reference point, I was looking at the "Who worked where" list from last summer, and comparing it to the Latin Honors list (I FINALLY did something gunner enough for TLS!) about 2/3 of the SAs from HLS at Ropes and Wilmer Boston were Latin Honors, compared to about half for Goodwin Proctor, the next biggest Boston firm. Meanwhile, Quinn's SAs were less than half, as were the random Washington firms I checked, whose names slip my mind.

(Of course, there are a hundred problems with that method, but it is what it is.)

[GertrudePerkins]

I was looking at the "Who worked where" list from last summer, and comparing it to the Latin Honors list

I love it! Where'd you find the honors list? HLS is so weird about publicizing anything that relates to grades.

[Anonymous User]

<-- Poster with the overly-conservative bid advice

Recent '12 HLS grad. I suppose I'll amend my advice. I think median/slight above median is fine for the target markets (except for maybe DC) if OP has good ties to the area. If that's not the case, though I think he might get shut out, even from the more mid-tier BIGLAW firms.

FWIW, when I was going through EIP, my grades put me at least in the top 20% (1 DS + 6 H + 3 P), and I consider myself a pretty strong interviewer. Of the six DC firms with which I had screeners, I got callbacks from just two. W&C, Covington, Sidley, and Gibson showed me zero love. Nailed NYC to the wall, though.

[delusional]

I was looking at the "Who worked where" list from last summer, and comparing it to the Latin Honors list

I love it! Where'd you find the honors list? HLS is so weird about publicizing anything that relates to grades.

There's a link on the commencement page. You need to sign in with a Harvard ID. I guess there's some tension between exposing grade information, and allowing people to know that they deserve honors.

[concurrent fork]

I was looking at the "Who worked where" list from last summer, and comparing it to the Latin Honors list

I love it! Where'd you find the honors list? HLS is so weird about publicizing anything that relates to grades.

Interesting idea, but I'm not sure this tells you much about firm selectivity. Some people slack after 1L while others load up on uncurved classes and clinics.

Also, I agree that with slightly above median OP has a shot at all of these markets. DC will certainly be the hardest.

[Na_Swatch]

<-- Poster with the overly-conservative bid advice

Recent '12 HLS grad. I suppose I'll amend my advice. I think median/slight above median is fine for the target markets (except for maybe DC) if OP has good ties to the area. If that's not the case, though I think he might get shut out, even from the more mid-tier BIGLAW firms.

FWIW, when I was going through EIP, my grades put me at least in the top 20% (1 DS + 6 H + 3 P), and I consider myself a pretty strong interviewer. Of the six DC firms with which I had screeners, I got callbacks from just two. W&C, Covington, Sidley, and Gibson showed me zero love. Nailed NYC to the wall, though.

yeah I think DC is altering your perspective... everyone agrees that its ridic but other markets aren't as bad. Also as a '12 grad u guys had it tougher then us '13ers

[Anonymous User]

<-- Poster with the overly-conservative bid advice

Recent '12 HLS grad. I suppose I'll amend my advice. I think median/slight above median is fine for the target markets (except for maybe DC) if OP has good ties to the area. If that's not the case, though I think he might get shut out, even from the more mid-tier BIGLAW firms.

FWIW, when I was going through EIP, my grades put me at least in the top 20% (1 DS + 6 H + 3 P), and I consider myself a pretty strong interviewer. Of the six DC firms with which I had screeners, I got callbacks from just two. W&C, Covington, Sidley, and Gibson showed me zero love. Nailed NYC to the wall, though.

OP here.

I'm not actually personally interested in all the markets listed. I'm asking for reference for friends, as well. Thus why I was asking more how many Hs would you consider necessary for each.

I'm under the impression that Boston loves HLS grads and that above median is fairly solid for Boston. Is that wrong?

I'm not interested in NYC, and will only bid there if others truly think it's prudent. I'm not interested in D.C.

Also, I've heard that while around 30% of ppl struck out at EIP for '12, only around 15-20% did for '13, and they predict a drop down to 10-15% for '14, so in general advice based off of '12 is going to be more conservative than necessary for '14, though certainly very much welcomed. Better that you give me conservative advice and I decide to take a risk than the other way around.

[ph14]

At barely above median, I would avoid every market you've listed. At most, spend a 2-3 bids on each. But the bulk of your bids should be on NYC.

Almost any major firm is DC is likely out of the picture due to sheer selectivity. DC doesn't care about ties; it's similar to NYC in that regard.

The other markets are a little easier to crack, and if you have SIGNIFICANT ties, then you might gamble a little more on those markets. But none will be easier than NYC.

I can't speak LA/SF, but here's how I would list the most competitive firms in the other markets.

DC: Williams & Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale

Boston: Ropes & Gray

NYC: Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C

If you are responding anonymously, it would be worthwhile to post your perspective.

FWIW, as a rising 2L, basing only on what I've heard from OCS, seen here, and a tiny bit of research, it seems like you're being really conservative. Sure, NYC is the easiest for someone at median, but the guy has a DS, and I find it hard to believe that median is limited to NY the way you say.

BTW, just as an odd reference point, I was looking at the "Who worked where" list from last summer, and comparing it to the Latin Honors list (I FINALLY did something gunner enough for TLS!) about 2/3 of the SAs from HLS at Ropes and Wilmer Boston were Latin Honors, compared to about half for Goodwin Proctor, the next biggest Boston firm. Meanwhile, Quinn's SAs were less than half, as were the random Washington firms I checked, whose names slip my mind.

(Of course, there are a hundred problems with that method, but it is what it is.)

What's latin honors? top 1/3?

[ph14]

<-- Poster with the overly-conservative bid advice

Recent '12 HLS grad. I suppose I'll amend my advice. I think median/slight above median is fine for the target markets (except for maybe DC) if OP has good ties to the area. If that's not the case, though I think he might get shut out, even from the more mid-tier BIGLAW firms.

FWIW, when I was going through EIP, my grades put me at least in the top 20% (1 DS + 6 H + 3 P), and I consider myself a pretty strong interviewer. Of the six DC firms with which I had screeners, I got callbacks from just two. W&C, Covington, Sidley, and Gibson showed me zero love. Nailed NYC to the wall, though.

Could this poster please pm me?

[delusional]

At barely above median, I would avoid every market you've listed. At most, spend a 2-3 bids on each. But the bulk of your bids should be on NYC.

Almost any major firm is DC is likely out of the picture due to sheer selectivity. DC doesn't care about ties; it's similar to NYC in that regard.

The other markets are a little easier to crack, and if you have SIGNIFICANT ties, then you might gamble a little more on those markets. But none will be easier than NYC.

I can't speak LA/SF, but here's how I would list the most competitive firms in the other markets.

DC: Williams & Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale

Boston: Ropes & Gray

NYC: Wachtell, Cravath, and S&C

If you are responding anonymously, it would be worthwhile to post your perspective.

FWIW, as a rising 2L, basing only on what I've heard from OCS, seen here, and a tiny bit of research, it seems like you're being really conservative. Sure, NYC is the easiest for someone at median, but the guy has a DS, and I find it hard to believe that median is limited to NY the way you say.

BTW, just as an odd reference point, I was looking at the "Who worked where" list from last summer, and comparing it to the Latin Honors list (I FINALLY did something gunner enough for TLS!) about 2/3 of the SAs from HLS at Ropes and Wilmer Boston were Latin Honors, compared to about half for Goodwin Proctor, the next biggest Boston firm. Meanwhile, Quinn's SAs were less than half, as were the random Washington firms I checked, whose names slip my mind.

(Of course, there are a hundred problems with that method, but it is what it is.)

What's latin honors? top 1/3?

Summa is top student (or 4.75 GPA LOL), Magna is top 10%, and Cum Laude is next 30%. Seems like Latin honors should end up being just shy of top 40%, except that if there's a tie, they both get, so it is likely about 40%.

[englawyer]

with 3H's , I think its perfectly fine to choose ONE of SF/SV, LA, Boston and use NY as a backup. Avoid DC and do not go all-in on any one particular secondary market. Also, do not do a pure mix of secondary markets.

if you don't have strong ties to SF but want to work there anyway, focus on SV and national firms with offices in SF. the local firms are extremely ties focused.

[Anonymous User]

EIP Vets: is there ever a grade point where you would say one would be safe enough to ignore NYC? I have 6H/4P but because of multiple DS's and LRW being half my Ps my "GPA" is ~3.9 (~10%). Assume ties to a couple of the major non-NYC/DC markets (ie Boston / Chicago / SF / LA).

[ph14]

EIP Vets: is there ever a grade point where you would say one would be safe enough to ignore NYC? I have 6H/4P but because of multiple DS's and LRW being half my Ps my "GPA" is ~3.9 (~10%). Assume ties to a couple of the major non-NYC/DC markets (ie Boston / Chicago / SF / LA).

Where are you getting the 3.9 = ~10% from? Just the magna cut off?

With that GPA, I think you could safely ignore NYC as long as you make sure to bid at least a few target and safeties just to be safe. Not an EIP vet though, just a rising 2L.

[Anonymous User]

EIP Vets: is there ever a grade point where you would say one would be safe enough to ignore NYC? I have 6H/4P but because of multiple DS's and LRW being half my Ps my "GPA" is ~3.9 (~10%). Assume ties to a couple of the major non-NYC/DC markets (ie Boston / Chicago / SF / LA).

Where are you getting the 3.9 = ~10% from? Just the magna cut off?

With that GPA, I think you could safely ignore NYC as long as you make sure to bid at least a few target and safeties just to be safe. Not an EIP vet though, just a rising 2L.

Yeah the 3.9 = Magna cutoff seems to be the conventional wisdom on TLS, although if that's the three-year average it means the 1L average is somewhat lower.

[ph14]

EIP Vets: is there ever a grade point where you would say one would be safe enough to ignore NYC? I have 6H/4P but because of multiple DS's and LRW being half my Ps my "GPA" is ~3.9 (~10%). Assume ties to a couple of the major non-NYC/DC markets (ie Boston / Chicago / SF / LA).

Where are you getting the 3.9 = ~10% from? Just the magna cut off?

With that GPA, I think you could safely ignore NYC as long as you make sure to bid at least a few target and safeties just to be safe. Not an EIP vet though, just a rising 2L.

Yeah the 3.9 = Magna cutoff seems to be the conventional wisdom on TLS, although if that's the three-year average it means the 1L average is somewhat lower.

Interesting. Congrats on the good grades and yeah I'd bid where you want to be without being worried. How many DSs are we talking? Not that it really makes a difference i'd think.

[englawyer]

EIP Vets: is there ever a grade point where you would say one would be safe enough to ignore NYC? I have 6H/4P but because of multiple DS's and LRW being half my Ps my "GPA" is ~3.9 (~10%). Assume ties to a couple of the major non-NYC/DC markets (ie Boston / Chicago / SF / LA).

you are probably fine to avoid NY. if you somehow did not line something up, you could get something via mass mail to NY after EIP

[094320]

..

[ph14]

EIP Vets: is there ever a grade point where you would say one would be safe enough to ignore NYC? I have 6H/4P but because of multiple DS's and LRW being half my Ps my "GPA" is ~3.9 (~10%). Assume ties to a couple of the major non-NYC/DC markets (ie Boston / Chicago / SF / LA).

Would this anonymous user please pm me?

[caminante]

I'm a 0L, but this thread is kind of scaring me. I'm headed to HLS next year and I'm pretty much 100% interested in coming back to DC after law school (my husband is staying here). Is it really that difficult to get placed in DC even with very strong ties?

[Anonymous User]

<-- Poster with the overly-conservative bid advice

Recent '12 HLS grad. I suppose I'll amend my advice. I think median/slight above median is fine for the target markets (except for maybe DC) if OP has good ties to the area. If that's not the case, though I think he might get shut out, even from the more mid-tier BIGLAW firms.

FWIW, when I was going through EIP, my grades put me at least in the top 20% (1 DS + 6 H + 3 P), and I consider myself a pretty strong interviewer. Of the six DC firms with which I had screeners, I got callbacks from just two. W&C, Covington, Sidley, and Gibson showed me zero love. Nailed NYC to the wall, though.

Very similar grades, very similar experience with DC and NY, respectively, from class of '13. Just don't do D.C., I think it's somewhat wasteful unless you have VERY relevant experience to D.C. and your resume looks like you want to go there. Poster above me, you might be the median-ish person that can get D.C., because you're well established there. From what I saw, that absolutely matters. Having a good reason to go back is important, and I learned the hard way that concrete reasons why your skill set and preferences point toward a typical D.C. practice is not enough.

I think optimal strategy, if you like LA/SF, is to bid half of one of those two markets, and half NY. This worked very well for a number of people last year.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Talked with OCS and their recs were a bit more liberal than the suggestions here.