2012 UVA OGI Thread Forum

[jawsthegreat]

Interviewing question:

I have an internship with ESPN listed on my resume. The job was unrelated to law - I updated statistics and scores and edited news articles for an unpopular sport. If asked about my experiences there, which would be more important: A) casually discussing what it was like, and maybe using that to segue into a brief mention of a related hobby (writing a blog about a local team which played this sport) or B) trying to use this "experience" to demonstrate having some useful skill, like attention to detail.

The latter would take no small amount of ingenuity. I mostly just chilled in a newsroom watching 80s movies.

That's gonna be interviewer specific. Some interviewers are going to ask you about that immediately and just want to chill and talk about sports for 20 minutes, if that is the case indulge them. Others will be more intense and not care as much, in which case you'll need to spin that to more tangible skills. Either way, that is something which will stand out enough that I'd imagine you'll get asked about it in 90%+ of your interviews. If you know how to use it correctly this will probably help you greatly.

[Anonymous User]

Question about the warnings against bidding multiple cities. I am interested in a three different secondary markets (all of which I have ties/compelling stories to wanting to be there). All of the best firms from these markets come to OGI. I am planning on bidding the top couple of firms from the three markets pretty high and then fill the rest out with NYC firms. Is this a bad idea, even if I just targeting a few firms in certain markets and then apply about half NYC? Why is this a bad idea? I have a 3.614 if that matters.

I was in a similar situation last year. I had a 3.68 and LR, with real work experience and serious ties to three secondary markets, and no interest in being in NYC or DC. I bid on every firm from two of the secondary markets in the order that I wanted to work for them, and then, because there weren't enough firms to fill out all 50 bids, added some NYC firms at the bottom.

I wound up with pre-selects filling out my 20 slots, and CSO added me in to some extras. I think I wound up doing two interviews with NYC firms. Those screeners turned into 14 call backs and 4 offers before the firm I wanted made me an offer and I withdrew from the rest.

It's important to remember that secondary markets often aren't competitive for students with top 20 percent GPAS, because those students are aiming for NYC or DC. So a high GPA candidate who is sincere about wanting to be in their market is going to be very, very appealing to them. Your resume really needs to reflect your strong ties to their market, though, so they can see in advance that you are a legit candidate.

[StanleyF]

I guess this post is in the category of general advice that no one has asked for.

When pre-selects were released last year, people freaked out. We had all been expecting a single unveiling, where the curtain would go up and we'd see all the firms that had pre-selected us. That didn't happen. The results trickled in, people panicked, and it was ugly.

So remember these things in the coming weeks:

UVa CSO may be very efficient, but it isn't calling the shots -- the law firms are. Firms may be told they have to get their pre-selects in by a certain date, but CSO can't make them and a lot them will largely ignore CSOs deadlines. It's like professors and the grading deadline, only worse: The firms know that CSO isn't about to turn them away, and if they don't want to be rushed to make pre-selects, they won't be. I had some firms that "pre" selected me after OGIs had started. They were just on a different time table than the CSO, and they weren't interested in being rushed.

Also, the firms usually play by UVa's rules, but not always. I had one firm that didn't pre-select me call me and ask me to interview during the second week of OGIs. I think they did a bunch of "stealth" interviews, increasing their pool of candidates.

Symplicity can go haywire. It's not the school's software, and the school can't control it, and things go wrong. So resist the urge to throw your hands up in despair and be patient.

You don't ever have to stop hustling for an interview. The school lets you "special request" interviews while OGIs are going on. Do this. It's easy, painless, and will almost certainly lead to more screeners. And the interviewer will know that you really want to be in the room, which will usually make for a nice interview.

The important point here is that things seldom go according to schedule leading up to OGIs. Be patient, don't panic, and it will work out.

[Anonymous User]

I guess this post is in the category of general advice that no one has asked for.

When pre-selects were released last year, people freaked out. We had all been expecting a single unveiling, where the curtain would go up and we'd see all the firms that had pre-selected us. That didn't happen. The results trickled in, people panicked, and it was ugly.

So remember these things in the coming weeks:

UVa CSO may be very efficient, but it isn't calling the shots -- the law firms are. Firms may be told they have to get their pre-selects in by a certain date, but CSO can't make them and a lot them will largely ignore CSOs deadlines. It's like professors and the grading deadline, only worse: The firms know that CSO isn't about to turn them away, and if they don't want to be rushed to make pre-selects, they won't be. I had some firms that "pre" selected me after OGIs had started. They were just on a different time table than the CSO, and they weren't interested in being rushed.

Also, the firms usually play by UVa's rules, but not always. I had one firm that didn't pre-select me call me and ask me to interview during the second week of OGIs. I think they did a bunch of "stealth" interviews, increasing their pool of candidates.

Symplicity can go haywire. It's not the school's software, and the school can't control it, and things go wrong. So resist the urge to throw your hands up in despair and be patient.

You don't ever have to stop hustling for an interview. The school lets you "special request" interviews while OGIs are going on. Do this. It's easy, painless, and will almost certainly lead to more screeners. And the interviewer will know that you really want to be in the room, which will usually make for a nice interview.

The important point here is that things seldom go according to schedule leading up to OGIs. Be patient, don't panic, and it will work out.

Can you, or someone, explain the SR process?

[RVP11]

Question about the warnings against bidding multiple cities. I am interested in a three different secondary markets (all of which I have ties/compelling stories to wanting to be there). All of the best firms from these markets come to OGI. I am planning on bidding the top couple of firms from the three markets pretty high and then fill the rest out with NYC firms. Is this a bad idea, even if I just targeting a few firms in certain markets and then apply about half NYC? Why is this a bad idea? I have a 3.614 if that matters.

Don't worry about it. I bid on six different markets two years ago and had callbacks everywhere. Just make sure you have a good explanation for why you're interested in each specific city. It might also help if the markets are somewhat related: no one will think it's weird if you're bidding on, say, every California firm that comes to OGI even if they are technically spread among 4-5 different markets.

[RVP11]

It's important to remember that secondary markets often aren't competitive for students with top 20 percent GPAS, because those students are aiming for NYC or DC. So a high GPA candidate who is sincere about wanting to be in their market is going to be very, very appealing to them. Your resume really needs to reflect your strong ties to their market, though, so they can see in advance that you are a legit candidate.

This is worth emphasizing. If you're in the 3.2-3.4 range, secondary markets are no easier than NY/DC. They might even be harder. But if you're 3.5+ and have ties to the market, you will probably rack up callbacks. If you have top quarter grades and you're from Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Ohio, Boston, Atlanta, Miami, or any other secondary market with lots of OGI firms, you're in luck.

Even if you're not top quarter, if you are from any of those markets you NEED to be bidding on them. It's time to be risk averse, folks.

[Anonymous User]

Do people in the 3.0 range ever find private sector employment from OGI absent huge connections? Can any 3Ls or alums give insight on how and where people in that GPA range find employment or if they end up unemployed?

[Anonymous User]

What is the best way to find all the firms in a secondary market that are not coming to OGI for mass-mailing purposes?

[RVP11]

What is the best way to find all the firms in a secondary market that are not coming to OGI for mass-mailing purposes?

NALP
Martindale
Chambers and Partners
Vault
NLJ350

[StanleyF]

What is the best way to find all the firms in a secondary market that are not coming to OGI for mass-mailing purposes?

Agree with NALP. http://www.nalpdirectory.com/

It has info about size of summer classes, pay, etc.

[5ky]

Can you, or someone, explain the SR process?

A special request is basically an appeal to be given an interview with a firm even though you were not pre-selected, didn't get it via the lottery, or sometimes did not bid on them at all. You essentially write 2-3 paragraphs to the firm, saying why you have a particular interest in that firm and why you want to interview with them specifically.

You send it to CSO a few days before that firm comes to UVA to interview. IT's unclear to me whether the special request goes to the firm's recruiting department, or just to the interviewers coming to campus. Regardless, the day the firm comes to campus for OGI, you have to go over to the law school and see if you got added to their interviewing schedule. They might squeeze people in during breaks, might add a few people at the end of the day, or might not add anyone at all.

I think there's a limit on how many special requests CSO will let you do, 5 or something. Fewer for people who have hit the interview cap. Last year, though, those who had hit the interview cap WERE allowed to special request a few firms, which put them over the cap limit. They tried to generally limit these to reach firms for those students, i.e. firms that people who weren't at the interview cap probably didn't have much chance at, in the interest of fairness -- e.g. the Davis Polks, Simpson Thachers of the world.

[Anonymous User]

It's important to remember that secondary markets often aren't competitive for students with top 20 percent GPAS, because those students are aiming for NYC or DC. So a high GPA candidate who is sincere about wanting to be in their market is going to be very, very appealing to them. Your resume really needs to reflect your strong ties to their market, though, so they can see in advance that you are a legit candidate.

This is worth emphasizing. If you're in the 3.2-3.4 range, secondary markets are no easier than NY/DC. They might even be harder.

Can you or someone else elaborate on this a little bit more? I'm a little below 3.3 (good resume though fwiw) and I'm trying to figure out whether I should prioritize bidding on some less selective NY firms over my home market (TX).

nvm, I should have been able to figure this out with the data CSO gave us.

[Anonymous User]

This is worth emphasizing. If you're in the 3.2-3.4 range, secondary markets are no easier than NY/DC. They might even be harder. But if you're 3.5+ and have ties to the market, you will probably rack up callbacks. If you have top quarter grades and you're from Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Ohio, Boston, Atlanta, Miami, or any other secondary market with lots of OGI firms, you're in luck.

What if you're sitting in the middle between a 3.4 and a 3.5?

[Anonymous User]

Can you or someone else elaborate on this a little bit more? I'm a little below 3.3 (good resume though fwiw) and I'm trying to figure out whether I should prioritize bidding on some less selective NY firms over my home market (TX).

First anon here. I think you have to have a discussion with CSO. They can tell you the historic GPA cut-offs for firms. If Texas firms don't hire below 3.4s from UVa, you will want to look elsewhere. But I have a feeling that they do hire people at your GPA, but they want to be sure you are serious about Texas.

As for the person sitting between 3.4 and 3.5, you are probably top 25 percent of your class and will be very competitive in all markets, including secondary markets. If you have strong ties to a secondary market, and that's where you really want to be, bid the secondary market high, and then maybe some NYC firms with huge classes that are in your GPA range to fill out the list. But if your secondary market has tiny summer class sizes, you might want to hedge your bets a bit more in NYC.

[jawsthegreat]

Can you or someone else elaborate on this a little bit more? I'm a little below 3.3 (good resume though fwiw) and I'm trying to figure out whether I should prioritize bidding on some less selective NY firms over my home market (TX).

First anon here. I think you have to have a discussion with CSO. They can tell you the historic GPA cut-offs for firms. If Texas firms don't hire below 3.4s from UVa, you will want to look elsewhere. But I have a feeling that they do hire people at your GPA, but they want to be sure you are serious about Texas.

As for the person sitting between 3.4 and 3.5, you are probably top 25 percent of your class and will be very competitive in all markets, including secondary markets. If you have strong ties to a secondary market, and that's where you really want to be, bid the secondary market high, and then maybe some NYC firms with huge classes that are in your GPA range to fill out the list. But if your secondary market has tiny summer class sizes, you might want to hedge your bets a bit more in NYC.

If you have a 3.5 and ties that are visible on your resume or are articulable in a cover letter, to a secondary market BID THESE LAST. You are going to get preselected. Your higher bids will be much better suited on NYC firms that are gonna get 100 bids.

[RVP11]

If you have a 3.5 and ties that are visible on your resume or are articulable in a cover letter, to a secondary market BID THESE LAST. You are going to get preselected. Your higher bids will be much better suited on NYC firms that are gonna get 100 bids.

Definitely.

Firms in secondary markets often get only like 30-40 bids for 20 interview slots, whereas NYC firms will get 100 bids for 20 interview slots and sometimes don't preselect people who are actually above their GPA cutoff. I remember several NYC firms not preselecting me even though I knew people with lower GPAs who ultimately got offers. The people doing the preselections are often recruitment staff (i.e. not lawyers) using who-knows-what criteria. Sometimes they do nothing but preselect the highest GPAs they can, sometimes they look at work experience and ties to the city, and sometimes the criteria they use are not consistent with the criteria of the interviewing attorney (the person who matters for a callback).

[Anonymous User]

Ok. GPA is ~3.45, K-JD. Planning to mass mail my home market, but virtually none of the firms there come to OGI, so it's a moot point for the purposes of bidding. Couple of questions:

1. Planning on bidding mainly NYC firms (since I have no real ties to any other markets). How high can I realistically aim?

2. Is it worth it to throw any bids at DC? If I had the choice, I would probably pick DC over NYC, but I would much rather have a job than no job.

[Anonymous User]

I want to say something about the GPA comments being made about secondary markets that, from my experience and from the GPA info I've seen, simply aren't true.

First, although I agree people from secondary markets with low GPAs should still bid heavily on those markets, a few of them are just as grade selective as DC.

Dallas and Atlanta are VERY grade selective. The big firms in Dallas and Atlanta, on average, are hiring from the top of the class (3.5+). So do not expect them to be easy. Also surprisingly, Richmond isn't too far behind in terms of the big firms there being quite grade selective (3.5+).

[Anonymous User]

First, although I agree people from secondary markets with low GPAs should still bid heavily on those markets, a few of them are just as grade selective as DC.

First anon here again. This is absolutely true -- GPA data is going to vary widely from firm to firm, and even from city to city. A firm with lots of offices might have different GPA data points for each office. That's why it's really important to meet with CSO and talk about where you want to be and make a bid list that targets firms that hire in your GPA. This is true no matter your GPA. The most important thing anyone can do right now is make an appointment with career services.

[Meerkat Manor]

Checking in with a 3.307. Ties to a solid but small insular market in the midwest, going to mass mail there and also probably bid New York. No interest in DC. No interest in the south really. I would LOVE SF but I hear it's a long shot. I would also love to go to LA - for all the rising 3Ls around, any thoughts on that location? One year of public service work in between LS and UG, if that's relevant.

[jawsthegreat]

Ok. GPA is ~3.45, K-JD. Planning to mass mail my home market, but virtually none of the firms there come to OGI, so it's a moot point for the purposes of bidding. Couple of questions:

1. Planning on bidding mainly NYC firms (since I have no real ties to any other markets). How high can I realistically aim?

2. Is it worth it to throw any bids at DC? If I had the choice, I would probably pick DC over NYC, but I would much rather have a job than no job.

It's worth it to bid DC. You have a shot (a mediocre one at best, but a shot at least).

In terms of NYC, eliminate Paul Weiss, Cleary, Cravath and SullCrom. Other than that you're in the running for everywhere. Keep in mind that your GPA is such that you may not get preselected by firms that you are within the GPA range for. So you may want to bid some higher ranked firms in you t10.

[Anonymous User]

If you have a 3.5 and ties that are visible on your resume or are articulable in a cover letter, to a secondary market BID THESE LAST. You are going to get preselected. Your higher bids will be much better suited on NYC firms that are gonna get 100 bids.

When you say secondary market, are you including SF/SV? 3.7 here, significant ties. Trying to figure out how to bid the Bay Area, getting to the Bay is my top choice. Thx in advance.

[Anonymous User]

Ok. GPA is ~3.45, K-JD. Planning to mass mail my home market, but virtually none of the firms there come to OGI, so it's a moot point for the purposes of bidding. Couple of questions:

1. Planning on bidding mainly NYC firms (since I have no real ties to any other markets). How high can I realistically aim?

2. Is it worth it to throw any bids at DC? If I had the choice, I would probably pick DC over NYC, but I would much rather have a job than no job.

It's worth it to bid DC. You have a shot (a mediocre one at best, but a shot at least).

In terms of NYC, eliminate Paul Weiss, Cleary, Cravath and SullCrom. Other than that you're in the running for everywhere. Keep in mind that your GPA is such that you may not get preselected by firms that you are within the GPA range for. So you may want to bid some higher ranked firms in you t10.

Sorry I'm a different anon poster than above, but just wanted to clarify since I have a similar GPA and am also looking at NYC. Are PW and Cleary really more selective than DPW, Skadden, Debevoise, Weil, Simpson? Both firms have over 100 SAs this summer, a big jump from 2011. Not disputing you at all, I just don't have a very good sense of this yet. The chart CS gave us is pretty unhelpful in this regard.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

If you have a 3.5 and ties that are visible on your resume or are articulable in a cover letter, to a secondary market BID THESE LAST. You are going to get preselected. Your higher bids will be much better suited on NYC firms that are gonna get 100 bids.

When you say secondary market, are you including SF/SV? 3.7 here, significant ties. Trying to figure out how to bid the Bay Area, getting to the Bay is my top choice. Thx in advance.

Bro, you have a 3.7. Just bid on whatever the hell you want in whatever order you want.

[Anonymous User]

Checking in with a 3.46. Want IP, have a technical background and passed patent bar. Was wondering if any 3L's who were in this situation or anyone in general could comment on how they structured their bid list. Are the IP firms easier to get pre-selected for because there are less qualified people? Should I bid them high? What GP firms should I be looking at with strong IP practices? I'm interested in Chicago (strong midwest ties), DC, and NY (to a lesser extent). Thanks.