below median @ MVP - plan? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Had a rough year, ended up below median at MVP. I'd like to work for a firm next summer. I realize I'm up against it, so I'm just looking for any advice/anecdotes/suggestions on where to go from here. Thanks in advance.

[Anonymous User]

Whether it's M or P probably makes a difference.

[Anonymous User]

it's MV, not P.

[rayiner]

Whether it's M or P probably makes a difference.

I take credit in making MV versus P happen. That said, you need to qualify this with "and you're willing to work in NYC."

OP, how far below median are you?

[BruceWayne]

Where are you from? Where do you want to work? Do you have WE? People need a lot more to figure out where you stand.

[Anonymous User]

Ok, I'm definitely willing to work in NYC - in fact I'd prefer it over anywhere else. I'm working in DC for the summer and I want to stay on the east coast post-graduation. I got a smattering of Bs of various sorts throughout the year and I believe our median falls somewhere in between B and B+. I'm from the Midwest originally, went to college on the east coast then worked there briefly before heading to school.

[Anonymous User]

When the newest ranking came out I started seeing #7 called PBV (and PVB). More recently it has reverted to MVP, is there a reason other than the MVP moniker might look cooler?

To the Q. Since you are competing with other T-14ers whose grades are better, your best plan to subdue stress is to remind yourself that firms know you are competing against the nation’s best students. A slightly under median score might be pedestrian in T14-land but firm wise you are in good shape due to your school’s ranking (at least one could hope).

[rayiner]

Ok, I'm definitely willing to work in NYC - in fact I'd prefer it over anywhere else. I'm working in DC for the summer and I want to stay on the east coast post-graduation. I got a smattering of Bs of various sorts throughout the year and I believe our median falls somewhere in between B and B+. I'm from the Midwest originally, went to college on the east coast then worked there briefly before heading to school.

You know it's possible to add up those B's and compute a GPA that can allow us to give you more concrete advice.

[IAFG]

When the newest ranking came out I started seeing #7 called PBV (and PVB). More recently it has reverted to MVP, is there a reason other than the MVP moniker might look cooler?

To the Q. Since you are competing with other T-14ers whose grades are better, your best plan to subdue stress is to remind yourself that firms know you are competing against the nation’s best students. A slightly under median score might be pedestrian in T14-land but firm wise you are in good shape due to your school’s ranking (at least one could hope).

PVB is dumb. V doesn't stand above M or DCN enough to warrant its own subtier.

[Anonymous User]

Slightly above 3.0 - 3.05 I believe.

[rayiner]

When the newest ranking came out I started seeing #7 called PBV (and PVB). More recently it has reverted to MVP, is there a reason other than the MVP moniker might look cooler?

To the Q. Since you are competing with other T-14ers whose grades are better, your best plan to subdue stress is to remind yourself that firms know you are competing against the nation’s best students. A slightly under median score might be pedestrian in T14-land but firm wise you are in good shape due to your school’s ranking (at least one could hope).

PVB is dumb. V doesn't stand above M or DCN enough to warrant its own subtier.

ITE the sub-tiers are:

CCNP
DN
MVC

(Sorry for your tiny pink lack of a home market MV bros).

[Anonymous User]

So, uh, "sub-tiers" aside, any advice for original poster? Thanks again.

[BruceWayne]

Ok, I'm definitely willing to work in NYC - in fact I'd prefer it over anywhere else. I'm working in DC for the summer and I want to stay on the east coast post-graduation. I got a smattering of Bs of various sorts throughout the year and I believe our median falls somewhere in between B and B+. I'm from the Midwest originally, went to college on the east coast then worked there briefly before heading to school.

Your best bet is probably going to be a job in the midwest--especially if you go to Michigan. Hustle hard and mass mail firms in Indianopolis, Cleveland, Cincinatti, Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis, and St. Louis. Other than that target NYC firms and hope for the best. But be aware that NYC firms are almost all going to have hard cutoffs that they will not dip below barring extraordinary circumstances--and a 3.0 is going to be below them in most cases. Some of the midwest firms will simply be excited to have someone from a top school from the midwest.

ITE the sub-tiers are:

CCNP
DN
MVC

(Sorry for your tiny pink lack of a home market MV bros).

What? I haven't caught the news today but as far as I know the Midwest and South are still in existence.

[rayiner]

ITE the sub-tiers are:

CCNP
DN
MVC

(Sorry for your tiny pink lack of a home market MV bros).

What? I haven't caught the news today but as far as I know the Midwest and South are still in existence.

Legal work in the midwest is heavily consolidated in Chicago, so the rest of the region doesn't have many jobs and most importantly doesn't have any firms that will hire 10+ Michigan grades to make a dent in that 380-person class size. Michigan's positioning is just terrible in a down economy. In a good economy they can send a few people to each of a bunch of different markets, but when the economy is bad, those markets buckle-down, hiring from their local schools and cutting back hiring elsewhere.

Virginia is better positioned because it at least has some brand loyalty in a major market (DC), and Atlanta, Charlotte, etc, are recovering and actually have firms that hire more than a couple of grads at a time. However, the South's insularity is scary for below-median folks who have no ties to these markets beyond going to UVA.

[rayiner]

Slightly above 3.0 - 3.05 I believe.

Well that's not enough to really help without knowing the school. If your GPA is a 3.0 and you're at UVA (3.3 median), you're bottom 10-15%. If your GPA is a 3.1 and you're at Michigan (3.17 median) you might not even be bottom third. GPA's are very compressed below the median at law schools, so "slight" differences are really meaningful in estimating class rank.

Your game plan as someone below median, but outside the bottom 1/3 is somewhat different from your game plan from bottom 10-15%. If you're a 3.1 at Michigan, I think you have a decent shot bidding a bunch of big but unselective NYC firms at OCI. Places like Cadwalader, etc. If you're a 3.0 at UVA, you should bid on the same firms, but focus more heavily on unselective branch offices (NY offices of non-NY firms like Baker & McKenzie, DLA, etc).

Either way, you need a mailing campaign. Put together a list of every NLJ250 firm in NYC outside the V25, and send targeted letters to them in August/September. Be systematic about this, and personalize each mail. Seriously consider expanding your search to nearby markets like NJ, upper NY, CT, etc.

[Anonymous User]

and you're at Michigan (3.17 median)

how do you know M's median? I'm at M and can't find it anywhere (not OP here)

[rayiner]

and you're at Michigan (3.17 median)

how do you know M's median? I'm at M and can't find it anywhere (not OP here)

--LinkRemoved--

Target mean range for each class is 3.13-3.25, or around 3.19.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at Mich....our median is higher than 3.17, but not far off (above poster: I think it varies year-to-year but it stays around 3.2; it's listed somewhere on the registrar's site). I've got a 3.05 - does that change your perspective rayiner? As far as search area goes, I was hoping to target the greater NYC area as well as the MD/DC/VA region (I used to live in MD; have family in DC).

[Anonymous User]

Dear rayiner what about below 3.0 at P? Any tips for if I want NY? Any advice greatly appreciated!

[Anonymous User]

I'm at Mich....our median is higher than 3.17, but not far off (above poster: I think it varies year-to-year but it stays around 3.2; it's listed somewhere on the registrar's site). I've got a 3.05 - does that change your perspective rayiner? As far as search area goes, I was hoping to target the greater NYC area as well as the MD/DC/VA region (I used to live in MD; have family in DC).

Recent grad (within last 3 yrs) from UM headed to DC. I'll say that DC will be really hard for you if you have only 3.05. Most of the applicants I know who have been successful for DC have grades above median. I'm not sure about smaller/mid size firms in DC, VA or MD, but biglaw in DC is incredibly competitive.

[Anonymous User]

I'm at Mich....our median is higher than 3.17, but not far off (above poster: I think it varies year-to-year but it stays around 3.2; it's listed somewhere on the registrar's site). I've got a 3.05 - does that change your perspective rayiner? As far as search area goes, I was hoping to target the greater NYC area as well as the MD/DC/VA region (I used to live in MD; have family in DC).

Recent grad (within last 3 yrs) from UM headed to DC. I'll say that DC will be really hard for you if you have only 3.05. Most of the applicants I know who have been successful for DC have grades above median. I'm not sure about smaller/mid size firms in DC, VA or MD, but biglaw in DC is incredibly competitive.

Thanks for the response. Yeah, I'm aware of the competitiveness of dc. I should mention, I'm very much open to working for non-big law firms In dc/va/md - I am however pretty unfamiliar with how their hiring works. I'm working on K st this summer - do you all think it would be useful to contact all the non-elite firms in the area, or would that fall on deaf ears?

[rayiner]

I'm at Mich....our median is higher than 3.17, but not far off (above poster: I think it varies year-to-year but it stays around 3.2; it's listed somewhere on the registrar's site). I've got a 3.05 - does that change your perspective rayiner? As far as search area goes, I was hoping to target the greater NYC area as well as the MD/DC/VA region (I used to live in MD; have family in DC).

Yes, that makes a big difference. A 3.05 at Michigan probably places you around the bottom 1/3 mark, but not at the very bottom of the class as it would on UVA's curve. At that range I think you have a credible shot at an NYC firm. Use the advice I gave above for "3.1 at Michigan." I.e. target unselective big NYC firms like Cadwalader and small branch offices. Back up your OCI plan with targeted mailings to every NY firm you didn't interview with, along with firms in CT, NJ, MD, and VA. Don't bother with DC. I think hitting up the big firms in Baltimore and PA might turn something up if NY fails.

[Anonymous User]

PVB is dumb. V doesn't stand above M or DCN enough to warrant its own subtier.

Maybe they should refer to them as #7 and be done with it.

[rayiner]

PVB is dumb. V doesn't stand above M or DCN enough to warrant its own subtier.

Maybe they should refer to them as #7 and be done with it.

CCNP dude. I can't find anything to distinguish Penn from NYU, placement wise, at least not anything that merits a sub-tier.

[Anonymous User]

I do not disagree but unfortunately USNWR does.