1L at MVPB w/ bottom 25% grades - leave of absence? Forum

[thesealocust]

Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.

But the pizza is REALLY cheap. Dollar per slice!!

[Old Gregg]

it actually is possible that some people value other factors like ability to work on top notch work

I'm not really sure this is unique to biglaw in NYC. Firms in Silicon Valley do top notch work in IP, firms in Texas do top notch litigation and energy M&A, firms in San Francisco/Silicon Valley do top notch private equity and venture capital work, firms in Chicago do top notch corporate and litigation work, and firms in D.C. do top notch litigation work.

Now if we're talking about the difference in quality of work between biglaw and whatever place veyron is working at, then yes, you have a point. But I simply refuse to believe NYC is unique in having "top notch" work. The only type of work that's "top notch" there is public M&A megadeals, capital markets, and maybe white collar lit.

[Veyron]

Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.

I don't understand... Are you suggesting that life exists outside of New York City?

Yes. But the people are, in a sense, joking.

[Doritos]

Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.

But the pizza is REALLY cheap. Dollar per slice!!

Yeah it's great! And with the cost of living in NYC it's all you will be able to afford with your biglaw salary! breakfast? pepperoni! lunch? cheese! dinner? sausage!

[Old Gregg]

And with the cost of living in NYC it's all you will be able to afford with your biglaw salary!

Also an exaggeration.


That said, I know many associates with a full freight of loans who are living in Manhattan. Simply comical.

[Doritos]

And with the cost of living in NYC it's all you will be able to afford with your biglaw salary!

Also an exaggeration.


That said, I know many associates with a full freight of loans who are living in Manhattan. Simply comical.

[thesealocust]

delicious, delicious dollar pizza. Nature's sweetest fruit.

[Old Gregg]

errr vegetable.

[IAFG]

Ugh. The most insufferable thing about NYC biglawyers is how they think everyone else just wishes they could be them. Veyron has been beating the "I don't want NYC" drum since he was a 1L and possibly since he was a 0L. Most of the people I know who bid on NYC did so out of fear and not aspirations. NYC fucking blows: shoebox apartments, sky-high taxes, terrible hours, and not even good bonuses (or any other worthwhile perk) lately to make up for it.

Empire state of mind. Make it in NYC, make it anywhere. Some people don't sign up for life to just get through it comfortably. Don't be ignorant - everything you listed as a negative just goes towards QoL.

That hardly makes me ignorant.

Unbelievably as it may seem, it actually is possible that some people value other factors like ability to work on top notch work

Like others have said, FAR from unique to NYC. And many would argue that, for the legal industry, the real top notch work is in DC.

and be in the center of the world.

lolok

[Grizz]

Empire state of mind. Make it in NYC, make it anywhere. Some people don't sign up for life to just get through it comfortably. Don't be ignorant - everything you listed as a negative just goes towards QoL. Unbelievably as it may seem, it actually is possible that some people value other factors like ability to work on top notch work and be in the center of the world.

This is some of the dumbest fucking horse shit I have read on TLS, and I read a LOT of TLS.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the comments thus far.

Just to clarify...most of you have been saying to focus on secondary markets, but my pre-law school ties are to a major market in an entirely different geographic area of the country. Is it worthwhile to try that market at all? And if not, is attending my MVPB considered a strong enough tie to a secondary market even without previous connections to this region?

(And please, only respond if you have actual advice based on solid knowledge.)

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the comments thus far.

Just to clarify...most of you have been saying to focus on secondary markets, but my pre-law school ties are to a major market in an entirely different geographic area of the country. Is it worthwhile to try that market at all? And if not, is attending my MVPB considered a strong enough tie to a secondary market even without previous connections to this region?

(And please, only respond if you have actual advice based on solid knowledge.)

The thread did turn into a pissing match between those who believe you can get secondary markets with low grades and those who don't. I would not take a leave of absence at this point. At these schools, you are looking at about 50% in biglaw, 10% in Art III clerkships, and probably another 5% who are doing gov't/PI but could have had biglaw. Assuming the clerkship people could have had biglaw, this makes about 65% who could have biglaw from this school range. (And maybe those figures will increase as we move out of ITE.)

There is no magical cutoff where if you are top 65% you automatically get a job and top 75% and you are SOL. Anywhere below top 20% or so, there is a continuum where work/life experience, personality, interviewing skills and diversity can make up for or negate grades. Your chances aren't terrific, but if you are around the top 75% (as opposed to bottom of the bottom quarter), you should probably stick it out, try to improve on your exam taking skills, and do your best at OCI.

ETA: Didn't mean to post anon. This is Wholigan.

[Anonymous User]

OP here. Thanks for the comments thus far.

Just to clarify...most of you have been saying to focus on secondary markets, but my pre-law school ties are to a major market in an entirely different geographic area of the country. Is it worthwhile to try that market at all? And if not, is attending my MVPB considered a strong enough tie to a secondary market even without previous connections to this region?

(And please, only respond if you have actual advice based on solid knowledge.)

You have to understand that secondary markets are not all created equal. "Ties" means something different in Seattle than it does in San Francisco than it does in Milwaukee. You ask if it's "worthwhile," well, in your position, you don't have the luxury of deciding what is or isn't worthwhile. If you don't move your grades up quite a bit, you're going to have to massmail every market you can make the slightest plausible play for (and are going to have to lie through your teeth about how you're only really interested in working in North Carolina/Boston/New Jersey/Los Angeles/whatever).

This is based on my solid, actual knowledge as someone who got multiple callbacks in multiple markets from massmailing based on really tenuous ties (like having lived in a neighboring state).

[Anonymous User]

Who wouldn't want better hours, more job security, and more interesting work?

"Midlaw" has none of these three qualities.

Idiot. Whachu know about midlaw?

You seem to have a knack for parroting the same tropes that every other unimaginative moron here does: (1) that you will get fired by year 2 in biglaw; (2) that all you do is doc review; and (3) you bill a shit-ton of hours. I can tell you right now that, in my experience as a junior associate and looking at associates above me, only (3) is true of biglaw as far as I'm aware.

My friends in midlaw? They make less money, work the same hours, and have pretty uninteresting work. Job security is also variable and highly firm-dependent. Me? I've literally done two nights of doc review in my whole time as an associate, get to work on cutting edge matters for the world's largest corporations, write substantive motions, and I get paid a lot of money. I'm also pretty certain that I won't get pushed out for at least 6-7 years if I continue to do solid work. And when I do get pushed out, I can kick it at that midlaw firm you love so much, among other things.

The only "smaller" firms that do interesting work and provide more job security are boutiques.

How about knowing what the fuck you're talking about before posting?

I'm SAing at a mid to biglaw size firm this summer (~160 attorneys). I had slightly below median grades at MVPDNC.

Associates typically bill ~1800-1900. They typically get trial experience within their first year or two at the firm. They make $130k in a relatively high-QOL market where $130k would probably literally go further than $200k would in NYC. The firm literally hires like 3 summers because they don't plan for attrition at all.

Sounds like I'm getting better hours, more job security, more interesting work AND more money.

[los blancos]

Empire state of mind. Make it in NYC, make it anywhere. Some people don't sign up for life to just get through it comfortably. Don't be ignorant - everything you listed as a negative just goes towards QoL. Unbelievably as it may seem, it actually is possible that some people value other factors like ability to work on top notch work and be in the center of the world.

This is some of the dumbest fucking horse shit I have read on TLS, and I read a LOT of TLS.

[Doritos]

"Midlaw" has none of these three qualities.

Idiot. Whachu know about midlaw?

You seem to have a knack for parroting the same tropes that every other unimaginative moron here does: (1) that you will get fired by year 2 in biglaw; (2) that all you do is doc review; and (3) you bill a shit-ton of hours. I can tell you right now that, in my experience as a junior associate and looking at associates above me, only (3) is true of biglaw as far as I'm aware.

My friends in midlaw? They make less money, work the same hours, and have pretty uninteresting work. Job security is also variable and highly firm-dependent. Me? I've literally done two nights of doc review in my whole time as an associate, get to work on cutting edge matters for the world's largest corporations, write substantive motions, and I get paid a lot of money. I'm also pretty certain that I won't get pushed out for at least 6-7 years if I continue to do solid work. And when I do get pushed out, I can kick it at that midlaw firm you love so much, among other things.

The only "smaller" firms that do interesting work and provide more job security are boutiques.

How about knowing what the fuck you're talking about before posting?

I'm SAing at a mid to biglaw size firm this summer (~160 attorneys). I had slightly below median grades at MVPDNC.

Associates typically bill ~1800-1900. They typically get trial experience within their first year or two at the firm. They make $130k in a relatively high-QOL market where $130k would probably literally go further than $200k would in NYC. The firm literally hires like 3 summers because they don't plan for attrition at all.

Sounds like I'm getting better hours, more job security, more interesting work AND more money.

Nothing like a good old fashioned "I have a better life than you" contest.

[AriGoldButNicer]

Col in nyc is overrated. Amount spent per capita is blown bec u have people who only eat steak every night (a large percentage of people). But aside from rent, it's cheaper to live here than elsewhere (i've traveled a lot). In other cities, subway's $5 subs are a bargain-here they're a rip off.

Many solid delis with $5 sandwiches, $1 dumplings, good $2.50 falafel, tons of $1 pizza, $10/mo gyms, no need for car ($108/month for a subway) is all you need.

Tips to saving here:

Use yelp for food.

Take subways and not cabs.

Join planet fitness/dolphin gyms/bally total fitness. Outside of rent, life is more expensive in philly, dc, etc than it is in nyc.

Plenty of good cheap bars too.

[MrAnon]

1st semester GPA: 3.3

2nd semester GPA: 2.5

[MrAnon]

Col in nyc is overrated. Amount spent per capita is blown bec u have people who only eat steak every night (a large percentage of people). But aside from rent, it's cheaper to live here than elsewhere (i've traveled a lot). In other cities, subway's $5 subs are a bargain-here they're a rip off.

Many solid delis with $5 sandwiches, $1 dumplings, good $2.50 falafel, tons of $1 pizza, $10/mo gyms, no need for car ($108/month for a subway) is all you need.

Tips to saving here:

Use yelp for food.

Take subways and not cabs.

Join planet fitness/dolphin gyms/bally total fitness. Outside of rent, life is more expensive in philly, dc, etc than it is in nyc.

Plenty of good cheap bars too.

Why not just live in a homeless shelter for a few months too. You can save a wad of cash from that shitlaw job and maybe even recruit a few clients for meritless suits.

[IAFG]

Join planet fitness/dolphin gyms/bally total fitness. Outside of rent, life is more expensive in philly, dc, etc than it is in nyc.

Plenty of good cheap bars too.

DC is expensive as fuck so that's a shitty comparison. Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, Philly, etc also have the sorts of cheap food and cheap drinks you're referring to, it's just a matter of living there long enough to figure out the ropes. I mean... seriously? You think you can't find $1 pizza and $5 sandwiches outside of NYC? Have you ever stayed in another city longer than a couple days?

But that misses the point: I didn't come to law school to eat $1 pizza for dinner after graduation. I think NYC blows because living well (theatre, penthouse apartment, world-class restaurants, garaging a car, etc) is so damn expensive. You can have the best of everything in Chicago for substantially less than in NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Nothing like a good old fashioned "I have a better life than you" contest.

No. I realize there are drawbacks to where I'm working. My lateral options probably won't be as good and if you're a prestige whore there's that too. Just discrediting the broad proposition that Midlaw is for losers who couldn't get Biglaw and doesn't have its inherent advantages that often makes it better for people who want to have a life outside of work.

[Anonymous User]

Possible to turn it around. Go over exams with the profs, and learn. Continue to work hard. I was 25% at MVP after first semester, due to a very low grade, then turned it around to above 75% for second semester, thereby pushing me very slightly above median for the year. Two V30 offers from OCI.

[AriGoldButNicer]

For what it's worth, say op had pretty decent looks and social skills (or prob exceptional by law school standards), would s/he be likely to get a job that would make it feasible to pay back loans and support a family?

[Anonymous User]

For what it's worth, say op had pretty decent looks and social skills (or prob exceptional by law school standards), would s/he be likely to get a job that would make it feasible to pay back loans and support a family?

Wut

[AriGoldButNicer]

For what it's worth, say op had pretty decent looks and social skills (or prob exceptional by law school standards), would s/he be likely to get a job that would make it feasible to pay back loans and support a family?

Wut

Ie was Put together, fit, well dressed.