Harvard / Yale LL.M. for Teaching Forum

[Anonymous User]

I realize that the "LL.M. Flowchart" answers this question for some, but does anyone know anything specifically about the value of the LL.M. programs at Harvard and Yale designed for aspiring academics? From the AALS hiring data that I've seen, it appears that several candidates with LLMs from Harvard or Yale got jobs, even those with J.D.s from lower ranked U.S. Law Schools. If anyone has any specific information about the value of these programs, I'd appreciate it.

[Anonymous User]

Really? Looking at the Prawfs hiring thread from last year, I count precisely one non-foreign LLM from Harvard. (There may be others with a JSD or PhD in addition to the LLM -- I was only looking at the first "Other Degree" category.)

[vamedic03]

I realize that the "LL.M. Flowchart" answers this question for some, but does anyone know anything specifically about the value of the LL.M. programs at Harvard and Yale designed for aspiring academics? From the AALS hiring data that I've seen, it appears that several candidates with LLMs from Harvard or Yale got jobs, even those with J.D.s from lower ranked U.S. Law Schools. If anyone has any specific information about the value of these programs, I'd appreciate it.

I don't really see the value of an LLM/JSD. All you're doing is paying someone to give you time to write. You would do far better trying to find a fellowship/VAP/clerking/working at a firm.

[conn09]

If you can get into Harvard's LLM program as a domestic JD, you probably have the credentials to teach already.

[Anonymous User]

I don';t think so.
my girlfriend graduated cum laude from a T20 and I feel quite certain that she could get into the LLM program at harvard - she's only top 25% of her class but she has published tons (8 articles, over half of them in top-ranking specialty journals)

I doubt she will ever become a law professor though. she is a columnist and works at a decent small firm in a big city.

[Anonymous User]

From the statistics I've looked at, I think it's somewhat unlikely that someone who graduated in the top 25% would get admitted into Harvard's LL.M. program, even if they graduated from a T20 school and have several publications. The program is extremely small, and the vast majority of students are international. The people that I've talked to to with U.S. JD's who were admitted into the Harvard LL.M. all graduated in the Top 5% of their class, had more than one publication, and a federal clerkship.

[Transferthrowaway]

I don';t think so.
my girlfriend graduated cum laude from a T20 and I feel quite certain that she could get into the LLM program at harvard - she's only top 25% of her class but she has published tons (8 articles, over half of them in top-ranking specialty journals)

I doubt she will ever become a law professor though. she is a columnist and works at a decent small firm in a big city.

Cool story, bro.

[Anonymous User]

from poster who post about his gf:
really?
I think harvard LLM might be less competitive for internationals then.
I know people who did not finish at the top at their foreign schools did their SJDs at harvard. but they did their LLM before getting their SJDs.

from what you said, there is also a huge drop-off in competitiveness from harvard to NYU - even NYU's tax program.

I went to a T25 and a few middling people went to NYU/georgetown for LLM. they did not even graduate in their top 1/3

[Anonymous User]

from poster who post about his gf:
really?
I think harvard LLM might be less competitive for internationals then.
I know people who did not finish at the top at their foreign schools did their SJDs at harvard. but they did their LLM before getting their SJDs.

from what you said, there is also a huge drop-off in competitiveness from harvard to NYU - even NYU's tax program.

I went to a T25 and a few middling people went to NYU/georgetown for LLM. they did not even graduate in their top 1/3

Over my 2 1/2 years at HLS all of the domestic JD--->LLMs I've met have been ridiculously impressive. And for the SJD comment, from my understanding they only take like 2 or 3 a year, and you have to have a Harvard LLM before getting the SJD.

[Anonymous User]

that was why I asked whether the llm program is less competitive to foreigners.
'cos some SJD people (who had completed LLM) I know are bright but not the top students (GPA wise) back in their foreign countries. however, they had research agendas and had published even before coming to harvard.

[Anonymous User]

I don';t think so.
my girlfriend graduated cum laude from a T20 and I feel quite certain that she could get into the LLM program at harvard - she's only top 25% of her class but she has published tons (8 articles, over half of them in top-ranking specialty journals)

I doubt she will ever become a law professor though. she is a columnist and works at a decent small firm in a big city.

Publishing in secondary journals is, honestly, not that impressive. Most budding scholars would take a T25 or T50 publication over any secondary journal (yeah, there are exceptions for tax, etc.).

Further, the track for hiring at the better law schools doesn't focus on volume of publications. It's all about quality of publication.

Typical top law school pathway:

Publish note/comment while student --> clerk for COA [work on writing 1 article and start thinking about second article] --> get VAP/Fellowship --> Publish 1 article towards beginning of VAP/Fellowship --> Prepare job talk piece and possibly 2d piece --> get assistant prof position --> publish job talk piece, starting working on add'l articles and start thinking about tenure talk piece.

[Anonymous User]

from poster who post about his gf:
really?
I think harvard LLM might be less competitive for internationals then.
I know people who did not finish at the top at their foreign schools did their SJDs at harvard. but they did their LLM before getting their SJDs.

from what you said, there is also a huge drop-off in competitiveness from harvard to NYU - even NYU's tax program.

I went to a T25 and a few middling people went to NYU/georgetown for LLM. they did not even graduate in their top 1/3

Over my 2 1/2 years at HLS all of the domestic JD--->LLMs I've met have been ridiculously impressive. And for the SJD comment, from my understanding they only take like 2 or 3 a year, and you have to have a Harvard LLM before getting the SJD.

It's not about the "impressiveness" of the LLM student; rather, it's about the quality of their scholarship. Talk to anyone on a T14 law review who has done article selection and ask them about the quality of the scholarship. Most good, young scholars are publishing during VAPs/Fellowships/etc and the quality coming out of domestic LLM's is not very good.

[Anonymous User]

from poster who post about his gf:
really?
I think harvard LLM might be less competitive for internationals then.
I know people who did not finish at the top at their foreign schools did their SJDs at harvard. but they did their LLM before getting their SJDs.

from what you said, there is also a huge drop-off in competitiveness from harvard to NYU - even NYU's tax program.

I went to a T25 and a few middling people went to NYU/georgetown for LLM. they did not even graduate in their top 1/3

Over my 2 1/2 years at HLS all of the domestic JD--->LLMs I've met have been ridiculously impressive. And for the SJD comment, from my understanding they only take like 2 or 3 a year, and you have to have a Harvard LLM before getting the SJD.

It's not about the "impressiveness" of the LLM student; rather, it's about the quality of their scholarship. Talk to anyone on a T14 law review who has done article selection and ask them about the quality of the scholarship. Most good, young scholars are publishing during VAPs/Fellowships/etc and the quality coming out of domestic LLM's is not very good.

exactly - I do not consider my gf that "impressive" academically (she published most of her work while she was a 2L/3L though and is not aspiring to be a law professor. she earns at least as much as a law professor at a middling law school). However I don't consider the local LLMs whom I know all that impressive either - they may have COA clerkships and top grades at law school but the quality of their scholarship may not be very good.


A former professor of mine has a Yale JD and a harvard llm - and he has published over 10 articles in flagship law reviews - but they are all ranked in their 100-200. I went to a T25 with a fairly good reputation.