another "should I drop out" thread Forum

[A'nold]

While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future. It's not the reviewing documents part that scares people, it's the low salary combined with terrible career potential that worries people. The fact that people think its not worthwhile to go into a career paying 40-50kish with little chance of advancement, and would instead like to try a field where making decent money may actually be possible does not make them idiots or irrational.

So you're arguing that working at a small firm automatically means:

1. Tarnished resume.
2. Little to no advancement.
3. Minimal raises.

/skepticalhippo

After his last few posts it's obvious he is using the anon feature to troll. It's always easy for the trolls to claim that they are top 5% students at Columbia and the only job they could find is doc review for minimum wage.

[r6_philly]

This is ridiculous. The answer is no. Particularly given

My parents are helping me out so, I don't/won't have any debt

. Perhaps things have come easy for you until now, but a career in this field will require some guts - show some, stop moping, and get networking. You will be fine.

Yea i think you are right, I'm just so used to TLS/autoadmit pessimism that i thought that the JD will overqualify me for non-legal jobs / lock me out from legal jobs since i struck out and I would just be wasting time

Have you ever had a real job? How do you know what it takes to get a non-legal job? Sounds harsh, but you are in a better situation than 99% of people in the country. If you shed the pessimism, graduate, and get out there, you will find things different than your unrealistic expectation (it isn't your fault, but you have to come to realize that).

[neimanmarxist]

I guess but isn't really hard to get those jobs (midlaw, ADA, etc)?

I don't think you should drop out, because getting a free JD from a T10 is pretty freakin awesome, even if you don't want to be a lawyer. The thing is, you shuold just decide if you want to be a lawyer or not because guaranteed any job you actually want with your BA will be just as tough to get as these midlaw/ADA jobs.

You basically are one of the lucky ones. Free JD, good school, no debt. Thank your family.

this. for the love of god, do not drop out. i mean, what do you have to lose? you have a couple of more years of school on your parents' dime, then you'll have a JD from a T10 school. How could you possibly think that you would be better off leaving and just finding the McJob that your useless BA will get you?

[Anonymous User]

I dropped out two years ago next week - best decision I've ever made in my life. There are two relevant questions:

1) Do you really want to be an attorney? For me, this answer was no. I sailed past the LSAT/received a lot of encouragement from family and didn't really give much thought to the idea that I just didn't really like the work.
2) Do you have an alternative? Because let's be honest, you may or may not be able to stretch living on the family dime but eventually you do need to get a job. My caveat is that I had a 770 GMAT + three years solid work experience in my pocket and could walk into any b-school on the planet.

There's nothing sweeter than having to listen to some jackass law student talk shit to me for dropping out, then a year and a half later beating her out for a prestigious government internship that she thought she had in the bag because both of her parents work at the office.

[c3pO4]

I dropped out two years ago next week - best decision I've ever made in my life. There are two relevant questions:

1) Do you really want to be an attorney? For me, this answer was no. I sailed past the LSAT/received a lot of encouragement from family and didn't really give much thought to the idea that I just didn't really like the work.
2) Do you have an alternative? Because let's be honest, you may or may not be able to stretch living on the family dime but eventually you do need to get a job. My caveat is that I had a 770 GMAT + three years solid work experience in my pocket and could walk into any b-school on the planet.

There's nothing sweeter than having to listen to some jackass law student talk shit to me for dropping out, then a year and a half later beating her out for a prestigious government internship that she thought she had in the bag because both of her parents work at the office.

Hmmm... sounds like you are just cruisin' along! Congrats on that gobmint internship! Take note, students of America, this guy is #winning.

Frankly I think dropping out (if you have debt and are at a bad school) can be a great choice. I know people who've dropped out of T2's and are now in bigconsulting, and are doing great.

But this anon's advice to drop out so you can go to B school or get a government internship is not tcr.

[Anonymous User]

Hmmm... sounds like you are just cruisin' along! Congrats on that gobmint internship! Take note, students of America, this guy is #winning.

Frankly I think dropping out (if you have debt and are at a bad school) can be a great choice. I know people who've dropped out of T2's and are now in bigconsulting, and are doing great.

But this anon's advice to drop out so you can go to B school or get a government internship is not tcr.

Neither of those were my advice. Talk about a reading comprehension fail...

There's a thread floating around here about that internship and it turned into a job about which there's also a thread floating around here. I'd also like to add "cool story bro" to your supposed knowledge of the security clearance process.

[c3pO4]

Hmmm... sounds like you are just cruisin' along! Congrats on that gobmint internship! Take note, students of America, this guy is #winning.

Frankly I think dropping out (if you have debt and are at a bad school) can be a great choice. I know people who've dropped out of T2's and are now in bigconsulting, and are doing great.

But this anon's advice to drop out so you can go to B school or get a government internship is not tcr.

Neither of those were my advice. Talk about a reading comprehension fail...

There's a thread floating around here about that internship and it turned into a job about which there's also a thread floating around here. I'd also like to add "cool story bro" to your supposed knowledge of the security clearance process.

Huh?

[shepdawg]

Sounds like you're a spoiled rich kid. If you beg your daddy enough he'd probably front you the money to start your own solo practice after graduation.

[Doritos]

It's interesting that the poll is actually pretty close (28-21) yet the people who actually post are trashing the OP

[vanwinkle]

OP:

What scares most people on this forum (and xoxo, and everywhere else) is the crushing debt. You don't have that. You're at a T10 and capable of graduating debt-free? You've already won. You're basically asking, "I'm getting this great free thing, but should I throw it in the garbage?"

There are plenty of job opportunities out there for someone with a T10 degree and half-decent grades. You'll have to work to get them, and they won't be prestigious or high-pay, but you're still far better off than most of your peers. Since you have no loans to repay, you can afford to take lower-paying jobs without having all your free income sucked away. You might end up starting somewhere at $40-50K, but let's be honest, ITE you won't find that kind of money with just a liberal arts BS. You have more flexibility than most to pick and choose your first job, even if it has relatively low starting pay, since you have no debt to worry about and a family that seems willing to support you.

However, your attitude is troubling. Saying "I refuse to do doc review" is a bad attitude to have. Why do you feel entitled to choose the kind of work you do as an entry-level anything? There are going to be a lot of jobs out there for people who want them, but wanting a career means being willing to get your hands dirty and work your way up from the ground floor. Law is a career, and one where a lot of the work at the bottom is tedious and boring. You don't graduate from law school and magically become Atticus Finch or Jack McCoy. Everyone who has been successful in law has taken the work they could find until they could do what they wanted.

And really, if you're going to refuse to do certain kinds of work, you're not going to cut it as a cop, or a teacher, or anything else for very long either. But if you actually want to be a lawyer, you have a golden opportunity, if you don't stupidly throw it away.

[keg411]

I am guessing by "refuse to do doc review" OP means contract doc review -- which is pretty much a dead end. So I don't think that's quite so troubling after everything that's been posted about coder life.

[Reprisal]

Quit being a bitch.

Finish.

Do whatever you want professionally knowing people will be impressed with your re'sume' regardless of what you choose to do.

Contribute something back to society since you've obv been raised with a silver spoon. (Or I will hunt u down)

[cattleprod]

However, your attitude is troubling. Saying "I refuse to do doc review" is a bad attitude to have. Why do you feel entitled to choose the kind of work you do as an entry-level anything?

I can fully understand the concern of anyone if contract doc review is your first job after law school. If you look at most lawyers who end up in contract doc review, it is the last stop before they wash out of the legal profession. The odds are extremely high that there is no upgrade from that point. It is the kiss of death to most resumes. If you put it on your resume, you will not have much of a chance at any law firm. If you leave it off of your resume, you need to be able to explain the gap in time and what you were doing.

The fear is a legitimate issue even if someone does graduate with $0 debt.
Is it worth 3 years of your life and spending that amount of money just to have a series of short term contracts at $20-$30 per hour?
T14 median is likely good enough to avoid that fate, but nobody is safe in this market.

[vanwinkle]

The fear is a legitimate issue even if someone does graduate with $0 debt.
Is it worth 3 years of your life and spending that amount of money just to have a series of short term contracts at $20-$30 per hour?
T14 median is likely good enough to avoid that fate, but nobody is safe in this market.

If you have $0 debt, what amount of money did you really spend? Besides, at this point OP is nearly halfway through law school, so the question is if it's worth another 1.5 years to finish what he started.

This is part of what's wrong with America. Getting a graduate degree with $0 debt and making US$30/hr would, in most parts of the world, be considered a good thing. Are you really so spoiled and entitled that you can talk about "avoiding the fate" of having a living wage and no debt?

I wonder if people burn out from doc review jobs because all the want is BigLaw money, and when they can't get that, they act like they can't get anything. I had a friend who pre-ITE graduated from an MVP, got shown the door like so many others as an associate, and ended up doing contract doc review. But rather than curse the downgrade and treat his life like a failure, he was grateful for the work and pay he had. He ended up developing a reputation, getting longer and longer contracts from the same banking firm, and then being hired permanently. He still does pretty much the same thing, but at a higher and more stable salary, and he managed to survive recession cuts because his job was actually necessary to the bank's operation. It's not glamorous and he's not on some track to huge riches, but he paid off his debts and he's living very comfortably.

[A'nold]

The fear is a legitimate issue even if someone does graduate with $0 debt.
Is it worth 3 years of your life and spending that amount of money just to have a series of short term contracts at $20-$30 per hour?
T14 median is likely good enough to avoid that fate, but nobody is safe in this market.

If you have $0 debt, what amount of money did you really spend? Besides, at this point OP is nearly halfway through law school, so the question is if it's worth another 1.5 years to finish what he started.

This is part of what's wrong with America. Getting a graduate degree with $0 debt and making US$30/hr would, in most parts of the world, be considered a good thing. Are you really so spoiled and entitled that you can talk about "avoiding the fate" of having a living wage and no debt?

I wonder if people burn out from doc review jobs because all the want is BigLaw money, and when they can't get that, they act like they can't get anything. I had a friend who pre-ITE graduated from an MVP, got shown the door like so many others as an associate, and ended up doing contract doc review. But rather than curse the downgrade and treat his life like a failure, he was grateful for the work and pay he had. He ended up developing a reputation, getting longer and longer contracts from the same banking firm, and then being hired permanently. He still does pretty much the same thing, but at a higher and more stable salary, and he managed to survive recession cuts because his job was actually necessary to the bank's operation. It's not glamorous and he's not on some track to huge riches, but he paid off his debts and he's living very comfortably.

Very well said.

And btw, this whole "doc review is the kiss of death" crap is bs. Yeah, maybe for biglaw, but you weren't going to get that job anyway. I have a feeling these people have no idea how the real world really works or what it takes to make it out there.

[hipstermafia]

get out/more jobs for the rest of us

[Anonymous User]

OP:

What scares most people on this forum (and xoxo, and everywhere else) is the crushing debt. You don't have that. You're at a T10 and capable of graduating debt-free? You've already won. You're basically asking, "I'm getting this great free thing, but should I throw it in the garbage?"

There are plenty of job opportunities out there for someone with a T10 degree and half-decent grades. You'll have to work to get them, and they won't be prestigious or high-pay, but you're still far better off than most of your peers. Since you have no loans to repay, you can afford to take lower-paying jobs without having all your free income sucked away. You might end up starting somewhere at $40-50K, but let's be honest, ITE you won't find that kind of money with just a liberal arts BS. You have more flexibility than most to pick and choose your first job, even if it has relatively low starting pay, since you have no debt to worry about and a family that seems willing to support you.

However, your attitude is troubling. Saying "I refuse to do doc review" is a bad attitude to have. Why do you feel entitled to choose the kind of work you do as an entry-level anything? There are going to be a lot of jobs out there for people who want them, but wanting a career means being willing to get your hands dirty and work your way up from the ground floor. Law is a career, and one where a lot of the work at the bottom is tedious and boring. You don't graduate from law school and magically become Atticus Finch or Jack McCoy. Everyone who has been successful in law has taken the work they could find until they could do what they wanted.

And really, if you're going to refuse to do certain kinds of work, you're not going to cut it as a cop, or a teacher, or anything else for very long either. But if you actually want to be a lawyer, you have a golden opportunity, if you don't stupidly throw it away.

OP, here I appreciate all the posts/polling so far. I'm pretty much positive i'm staying in school at this point. Van Winkle, I don't think i'm entitled to something better necessarily I just always though doc review was a dead end and not at all stable employment, the whole point of this thread was if doc review was all i was going to get out of law school it probably wouldn't be worth it because I rather try to teach or do anything with more stability and enjoyability. I'm still not convinced that doc review isn't a dead end, i've read some of the "areyouinsane" threads and they're depressing as hell, but I think in the end the people who say the JD is a good credential to have are right.

[vanwinkle]

OP, here I appreciate all the posts/polling so far. I'm pretty much positive i'm staying in school at this point. Van Winkle, I don't think i'm entitled to something better necessarily I just always though doc review was a dead end and not at all stable employment, the whole point of this thread was if doc review was all i was going to get out of law school it probably wouldn't be worth it because I rather try to teach or do anything with more stability and enjoyability. I'm still not convinced that doc review isn't a dead end, i've read some of the "areyouinsane" threads and they're depressing as hell, but I think in the end the people who say the JD is a good credential to have are right.

I think doc review is just a worst-case scenario, and with no debt you'll have a lot more flexibility than most grads. If you're willing to put yourself out there, take work that starts out relatively low-paying but lets you build experience, you might be able to find what you want. Maybe not extremely high-paying, but reliable and even enjoyable. There's a lot more out there than just BigLaw and doc review.

Not everyone who tries makes it, but everyone who gives up easily doesn't.

[Veyron]

Most of the people who struck out at my T10 ended up in unemployment or doc review (that I knew at least). I don't know a single person who graduated with a non-biglaw job paying more than 40-50k. The reality of this job market is that there is no middle ground between very high salary and extremely low salary.

I don't understand why people are so harsh on OP (being in a similar situation myself). When your only likely job options involve doing legal work for minimum wage, that's a pretty huge sacrifice. There are plenty of other low paying jobs which do not come with the stressful hours or demands of shitlaw. I don't blame OP for being hesitant to continue on this path.

Holy fuck, seriously? Does it have to be spelled out for everyone?

40-50k salary does not automatically equate to doc review.

While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future. It's not the reviewing documents part that scares people, it's the low salary combined with terrible career potential that worries people. The fact that people think its not worthwhile to go into a career paying 40-50kish with little chance of advancement, and would instead like to try a field where making decent money may actually be possible does not make them idiots or irrational.

Law student who has 0 idea how much bank you can make in "shitlaw." Its not terribly uncommon for someone to work for a small firm for a number of years after which they start their own firm. People who run their own small firms often make as much if not more money than biglaw partners and have far more control over their lives. Honestly, to listen to the people on this board, you'd think that biglaw was the only path to riches.

[A'nold]

Most of the people who struck out at my T10 ended up in unemployment or doc review (that I knew at least). I don't know a single person who graduated with a non-biglaw job paying more than 40-50k. The reality of this job market is that there is no middle ground between very high salary and extremely low salary.

I don't understand why people are so harsh on OP (being in a similar situation myself). When your only likely job options involve doing legal work for minimum wage, that's a pretty huge sacrifice. There are plenty of other low paying jobs which do not come with the stressful hours or demands of shitlaw. I don't blame OP for being hesitant to continue on this path.

Holy fuck, seriously? Does it have to be spelled out for everyone?

40-50k salary does not automatically equate to doc review.

While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future. It's not the reviewing documents part that scares people, it's the low salary combined with terrible career potential that worries people. The fact that people think its not worthwhile to go into a career paying 40-50kish with little chance of advancement, and would instead like to try a field where making decent money may actually be possible does not make them idiots or irrational.

Law student who has 0 idea how much bank you can make in "shitlaw." Its not terribly uncommon for someone to work for a small firm for a number of years after which they start their own firm. People who run their own small firms often make as much if not more money than biglaw partners and have far more control over their lives. Honestly, to listen to the people on this board, you'd think that biglaw was the only path to riches.

I can say confidently that most small law lawyers I know make more than their biglaw counterparts, unless they are a partner in biglaw. Admittedly, I mostly know personal injury attorneys but it's not like they are chasing ambulances and they all seem to love their work.

Edit: Also, op, you need to stop taking everything you read on here to heart. Areyouinsane is a scamblogger and writes what he writes for the comedy and to scare gullible readers.

[keg411]

It's not only areyouinsane that has horrifying doc review stories (and none of these posters are areyouinsane):
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--

Caveat, it's JDU, but the more you read, the more you realize how awful it is to be labeled a "coder" instead of a "lawyer".

[A'nold]

It's not only areyouinsane that has horrifying doc review stories (and none of these posters are areyouinsane):
--LinkRemoved--
--LinkRemoved--

Caveat, it's JDU, but the more you read, the more you realize how awful it is to be labeled a "coder" instead of a "lawyer".

Be careful believing what you read on that site. Doc review is obviously not ideal, but there is a whole world of law outside of the NYC biglaw/NYC horrific doc review continuum. Not finding a job in Boise, ID and working as a contract doc reviewer for 6 months out of law school is certainly not a death sentence you your Idaho small law career.

[romothesavior]

This is ridiculous. The answer is no. Particularly given

My parents are helping me out so, I don't/won't have any debt

. Perhaps things have come easy for you until now, but a career in this field will require some guts - show some, stop moping, and get networking. You will be fine.

TITCR. Median at a T10 with no debt? Even without a job, you're in a better situation than the vast majority of law students. If you actually think you'd enjoy being a lawyer, suck it up and go after it. Even if you start out at ~50-60k in a smaller firm, you'll have no debt. Sounds like a pretty good career opportunity to me.

[romothesavior]

While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future.

This is absolutely horse shit. I know a sizeable chunk of lawyers who started out at what you would call "shitlaw" who now make double what their peers in biglaw make. I would just about guarantee you that 3-5 years out of law school, the most well paid people will not be biglaw lawyers, especially outside of the NYC/Chicago/DC types of markets. And a lot of these "shitlaw" firms also give you decent experience that will allow you to market yourself in different ways than a biglaw castoff could. Not saying a person shouldn't do biglaw if they get the chance, but to pretend that a small firm is a death knell for a person's career is just asinine.

Sure, going from "shitlaw" ----> riches is not a likely scenario. I wouldn't tell anyone to go into a lot of debt for the opportunity to work a low paying salary on the "chance" that they might strike it rich. But no debt with a 40k+ job is a fine outcome as a fresh graduate, and the opportunities for big salaries down the road exist. Law students are so incredibly short-sighted, and your posts are just silly. Also, stop posting anon.

[A'nold]

While you are correct that it does not equate to doc review, it does equate to working shitlaw and tarnishing your resume, meaning very little chance for advancement or higher pay in the future.

This is absolutely horse shit. I know a sizeable chunk of lawyers who started out at what you would call "shitlaw" who now make double what their peers in biglaw make. I would just about guarantee you that 3-5 years out of law school, the most well paid people will not be biglaw lawyers, especially outside of the NYC/Chicago/DC types of markets. And a lot of these "shitlaw" firms also give you decent experience that will allow you to market yourself in different ways than a biglaw castoff could. Not saying a person shouldn't do biglaw if they get the chance, but to pretend that a small firm is a death knell for a person's career is just asinine.

Sure, going from "shitlaw" ----> riches is not a likely scenario. I wouldn't tell anyone to go into a lot of debt for the opportunity to work a low paying salary on the "chance" that they might strike it rich. But no debt with a 40k+ job is a fine outcome as a fresh graduate, and the opportunities for big salaries down the road exist. Law students are so incredibly short-sighted, and your posts are just silly. Also, stop posting anon.

Also, it's amazing how much posters on this board eat up the scamblogger's propaganda about salaries. All it takes is one CL ad asking for a paralegal w/ a JD making $12/hr and "that is the reality out there man, be a plumber!" and everyone just curls up in a ball quivering in the corner and ask if they should drop out from their t1 school in their 3L year.....unbelievable. Also, the exaggerations are extreme. It's like when dieters lose weight, how they'll slightly fudge their starting weight by a few pounds and their end weight by a few pounds for extra effect. What they don't realize is that the real weight loss of 50 pounds is still impressive; you don't need to say 60. It is the same way with the 40k starting salary everyone throws around on here as fact. 50-60k, which is much more realistic, is still much lower than a biglaw salary. But scambloggers feel the need to lower it to 40k and cite to anecdotal stories or CL ads in an attempt to further scare the naive. It just hurts their credibility even more.