Question about the struggling legal market. Forum

[snestor20]

Coming from the perspective of an incoming 1L in Fall of 2012, how much does the ability to network and sell oneself prior to 3L factor into the job search? I'd imagine one couldn't depend on their career services office for all of this - especially when some career service offices lack competence altogether.

[Anonymous User]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

Yes Lawyers save asses, but Doctors save lives. It is the ultimate profession. The biggest prize. The highest position. The Kings or Kings.

You think it feels good getting a not guilty on a DUI? Think about how good it would feel to successfully complete a brain surgery to save someones life.

Anybody, literally ANYBODY could become a lawyer. Maybe not a good one, but a lawyer. It takes a special breed to become a Dr.

[071816]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

Yes Lawyers save asses, but Doctors save lives. It is the ultimate profession. The biggest prize. The highest position. The Kings or Kings.

You think it feels good getting a not guilty on a DUI? Think about how good it would feel to successfully complete a brain surgery to save someones life.

Anybody, literally ANYBODY could become a lawyer. Maybe not a good one, but a lawyer. It takes a special breed to become a Dr.

Really? Comparing brain surgery to defending a DUI charge? And why the fuck was this anonymous?

[prezidentv8]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

Yes Lawyers save asses, but Doctors save lives. It is the ultimate profession. The biggest prize. The highest position. The Kings or Kings.

You think it feels good getting a not guilty on a DUI? Think about how good it would feel to successfully complete a brain surgery to save someones life.

Anybody, literally ANYBODY could become a lawyer. Maybe not a good one, but a lawyer. It takes a special breed to become a Dr.

Really? Comparing brain surgery to defending a DUI charge? And why the fuck was this anonymous?

<comes back into thread at awkward moment>

<looks around>

<backs away>

[Bronte]

This desire to "rank" the prestige, intelligence, etc. of doctors against lawyers is such an asinine, insecure, prestige-whorish obsession. They're both necessary professions that serve distinct functions, and if you're concerned about their relative prestige, do us all a favor and stay out of either. If you can't understand that they involve different types of reasoning, you have an extremely basic understanding of human intelligence.

[rayiner]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

You're right that the LSAT and the MCAT aren't comparable. The LSAT is an aptitude test. The MCAT is a knowledge test. The MCAT, by design, requires a lot of prior knowledge and memorization. The LSAT, by design, requires know prior knowledge but is a very highly speeded test (even though in theory it's not intended to be).

[Pato_09]

study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school.

Not True at all, you cannot study your ass off to get a top score. It requires a lot of skills that you cannot acquire by studying.

[Anonymous User]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

Yes Lawyers save asses, but Doctors save lives. It is the ultimate profession. The biggest prize. The highest position. The Kings or Kings.

You think it feels good getting a not guilty on a DUI? Think about how good it would feel to successfully complete a brain surgery to save someones life.

Anybody, literally ANYBODY could become a lawyer. Maybe not a good one, but a lawyer. It takes a special breed to become a Dr.

dude don't pass on your insecurities to the rest of us.....some of chose this profession by choice......not because we got a C in organic chemistry

I think at the elite levels there is no intelligence gap between doctors, lawyers, bankers, college profs, scientists, etc. Smart people are not all the same. We are motivated and driven by different passions. You might think saving one persons life with brain surgery is the best thing ever. Some other person might believe arguing a case that overturns state sanctioned segregation is the best thing ever. Different strokes for different folks.

However you are right that at the mediocre and lower levels the legal profession is unfortunately filled with LOW LIFE IMBECILES. Blame of the ease at which a JD is handed out.

[Anonymous User]

Very fair evaluation here, all around. (Though I'm very skeptical that CLS will hit the 70% mark.)

If their internal data is to be believed, they hit the 70% mark last OCI as well. The data I have from NU suggests that we hit the 60% mark. Of course when you factor in no-offers (which wasn't insubstantial this year thanks to fears of double-dip), along with clerkship and government defectors, I predict ~40% actual NLJ250 placement at graduation.

actually it was closer to 80%

~78%.

[mrloblaw]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

You're right that the LSAT and the MCAT aren't comparable. The LSAT is an aptitude test. The MCAT is a knowledge test. The MCAT, by design, requires a lot of prior knowledge and memorization. The LSAT, by design, requires know prior knowledge but is a very highly speeded test (even though in theory it's not intended to be).

And by the way, I don't feel like digging up the link, but they're changing the MCAT to be more LSAT-like, the idea being that creating good doctors does not require pigeonholing 18 year olds into chemistry majors, and the entrance examination should not be based solely on rote memorization. The parts that are knowledge-based are also going to emphasize different courses than the present test. If I remember correctly, the new test, which is currently being developed, is set to replace the current one in 2015.

Further, the years in college in which I did the pre-med coursework was by far the easiest time I had. Pre-med courses test rote memorization of facts and formulas more than anything else, so that the greatest challenge involved is in not passing out from boredom on the o-chem book.

Edit: Horrible grammar/repetition. I should stop writing posts at 3 in the morning.

[rayiner]

Very fair evaluation here, all around. (Though I'm very skeptical that CLS will hit the 70% mark.)

If their internal data is to be believed, they hit the 70% mark last OCI as well. The data I have from NU suggests that we hit the 60% mark. Of course when you factor in no-offers (which wasn't insubstantial this year thanks to fears of double-dip), along with clerkship and government defectors, I predict ~40% actual NLJ250 placement at graduation.

actually it was closer to 80%

~78%.

I saw 70% for C/O 2012. What year is the 78% for?

[Anonymous User]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

You're right that the LSAT and the MCAT aren't comparable. The LSAT is an aptitude test. The MCAT is a knowledge test. The MCAT, by design, requires a lot of prior knowledge and memorization. The LSAT, by design, requires know prior knowledge but is a very highly speeded test (even though in theory it's not intended to be).

And by the way, I don't feel like digging up the link, but they're changing the MCAT to be more LSAT-like, the idea being that creating good doctors does not require pigeonholing 18 year olds into chemistry majors, and the entrance examination should not be based solely on rote memorization. The parts that are knowledge-based are also going to emphasize different courses than the present test. If I remember correctly, the new test, which is currently being developed, is set to replace the current one in 2015.

Further, the years in college in which I did the pre-med coursework was by far the easiest time I had. Pre-med courses test rote memorization of facts and formulas more than anything else, so that the greatest challenge involved is in not passing out from boredom on the o-chem book.

Edit: Horrible grammar/repetition. I should stop writing posts at 3 in the morning.

Wait so you completed the pre-med requirements and chose to go to law school instead? or you didnt get into med school and chose law school? Sincerely curious. Not stirring anything up

[mrloblaw]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

You're right that the LSAT and the MCAT aren't comparable. The LSAT is an aptitude test. The MCAT is a knowledge test. The MCAT, by design, requires a lot of prior knowledge and memorization. The LSAT, by design, requires know prior knowledge but is a very highly speeded test (even though in theory it's not intended to be).

And by the way, I don't feel like digging up the link, but they're changing the MCAT to be more LSAT-like, the idea being that creating good doctors does not require pigeonholing 18 year olds into chemistry majors, and the entrance examination should not be based solely on rote memorization. The parts that are knowledge-based are also going to emphasize different courses than the present test. If I remember correctly, the new test, which is currently being developed, is set to replace the current one in 2015.

Further, the years in college in which I did the pre-med coursework was by far the easiest time I had. Pre-med courses test rote memorization of facts and formulas more than anything else, so that the greatest challenge involved is in not passing out from boredom on the o-chem book.

Edit: Horrible grammar/repetition. I should stop writing posts at 3 in the morning.

Wait so you completed the pre-med requirements and chose to go to law school instead? or you didnt get into med school and chose law school? Sincerely curious. Not stirring anything up

I finished everything but the second semester of o-chem, but never took the MCAT or applied to medical school. I actually enjoy studying law, as well as the humanities courses that led into it. In contrast, I was completely miserable spending twelve hours per day memorizing chemical formulas. For better or worse, I'm not the kind of person that can spend years of my life doing something I hate for the (even very high) chance of future reward, and I knew that I would hate, at the least, the classroom years of medical school. From what I gather, o-chem is nothing compared to the sorts of memorization required for med-school level anatomy or pharmacology.

Plus, in terms of personality fit, I'd honestly be happier doing doc review in a firm basement than being chief of department X at Hopkins.

[Anonymous User]

I finished everything but the second semester of o-chem, but never took the MCAT or applied to medical school. I actually enjoy studying law, as well as the humanities courses that led into it. In contrast, I was completely miserable spending twelve hours per day memorizing chemical formulas. For better or worse, I'm not the kind of person that can spend years of my life doing something I hate for the (even very high) chance of future reward, and I knew that I would hate, at the least, the classroom years of medical school. From what I gather, o-chem is nothing compared to the sorts of memorization required for med-school level anatomy or pharmacology.

Plus, in terms of personality fit, I'd honestly be happier doing doc review in a firm basement than being chief of department X at Hopkins.

Very nice. People forget sometimes that a career is for a life time. You have to do what you love or else your entire life time will be a struggle not necessarily financially, but happiness in what you are doing.

[cattleprod]

In my humble opinion, doctors and lawyers can not be compared. Doctors>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Lawyers. You can get straight A's in a Communication degree(easy for anyone), study your ass off for the LSAT, and get into a Top law school. But Medical School admissions require Mathematics, Biology, Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, and Physics. And from someone who has been studying for both the LSAT and the MCAT, they are not comparable. MCAT is to LSAT as Masters Degree is to Kindergarten.

I agree. Any twit can graduate law school. Most bad doctors get weeded out at some point during the process. Either they will drop out of med school or they won't get a good residency.
A friend of mine who went to med school told me that the weaker students get pushed into primary care. Those are the doctors that do general checkups and are not allowed to actually handle anything sharper than a needle.

The number of residencies is equal to the number of spots in medical school. Due to the issue of "quacks" coming from unregulated medical schools in the 1800's, the industry is tightly regulated these days. The legal profession needs a similar house cleaning.

[cattleprod]

Plus, in terms of personality fit, I'd honestly be happier doing doc review in a firm basement than being chief of department X at Hopkins.

Do some doc review for a few weeks, then see if you still believe that.
Doc review and $100,000 in student loans will have you going through the 5 stages of grief.

I would prefer bottom of the class in med school and doing primary care at a walk-in clinic earning a rock bottom doctor salary.
What is that? $80,000 for the worst doctor job?
Compare that to $20 per hour for doc review work where you are unemployed 50% of the time.
Seriously? You would rather have that than be a doctor?

[cattleprod]

one thing i dont understand is that if students from top law schools are having trouble finding employment, how does ANYONE from a TT etc get any kind of employment?

They don't. 80% of the people graduating law school are not finding employment in the legal field.
That is just a ghetto estimate. Nothing official.

If you are outside of T14, you better be in the top 15% of your class.
If you are in TT, you better have a family member in a law firm ready to hire you.

If you are in TTT or TTTT, then you need to be blond, 34 D and have a reasonably sized posterior.
Include a picture with your resume. I suggest that you show some cleavage during the interview.
Be very "friendly".

[cattleprod]

OP here. So all in all the answer I was looking for (and yes I know that noone knows for sure), but do you think that the once the economy recovers, the legal profession will recover as well?

Aside from the fact that the economy is likely to not get much better for a huge part of our professional lives, there are some pretty major problems within the legal industry itself: too many newly-minted JDs, inordinately high cost of a legal education, clients that are increasingly scrutinizing the cost of legal services (result of the bad economy, but this won't stop being a concern the moment clients start making money again), etc.

Getting a law degree will remain an incredibly risky proposition for a very long time.

Don't forget the newest trend in the legal profession. We are now outsourcing our work to India !!!

[Anonymous User]

OP here. So all in all the answer I was looking for (and yes I know that noone knows for sure), but do you think that the once the economy recovers, the legal profession will recover as well?

Aside from the fact that the economy is likely to not get much better for a huge part of our professional lives, there are some pretty major problems within the legal industry itself: too many newly-minted JDs, inordinately high cost of a legal education, clients that are increasingly scrutinizing the cost of legal services (result of the bad economy, but this won't stop being a concern the moment clients start making money again), etc.

Getting a law degree will remain an incredibly risky proposition for a very long time.

Don't forget the newest trend in the legal profession. We are now outsourcing our work to India !!!

fuck it cattleprod. lets go to med school!

[cattleprod]

Don't forget the newest trend in the legal profession. We are now outsourcing our work to India !!!

fuck it cattleprod. lets go to med school!

If only I could go back and start over in my freshman year of college.
It is just insane that such life decisions need to be made at the age of 18 or 19.
I was freakin clueless back then.

Nobody should be allowed to take on student loans to study for a profession that does not offer a realistic chance of being able to repay those loans.
It is not just law school that makes little fiancial sense. Many graduate schools are disfunctional these days.
A former girlfriend of mine has $110,000 in student debt for her undergrad and masters.
She earns $45,000 working for the state of Florida juvenile justice system.
She is rapidly falling behind and is doomed to default. Her payment is almost 25% of her aftertax income.

How many other liberal arts degrees don't have a realistic shot at an income to justify the student loan debt?
Shouldn't there be a risk on the loan provider that they won't get repayment of the loan. Moral hazard?

Shouldn't the student loan provider do a credit assessment on the odds of repayment, then determine if the loan is approved?
They don't care. They just demand that the parents co-sign on the loan so they have another sucker that can be forced to payoff the higher education scam.

[mrloblaw]

Plus, in terms of personality fit, I'd honestly be happier doing doc review in a firm basement than being chief of department X at Hopkins.

Do some doc review for a few weeks, then see if you still believe that.
Doc review and $100,000 in student loans will have you going through the 5 stages of grief.

I would prefer bottom of the class in med school and doing primary care at a walk-in clinic earning a rock bottom doctor salary.
What is that? $80,000 for the worst doctor job?
Compare that to $20 per hour for doc review work where you are unemployed 50% of the time.
Seriously? You would rather have that than be a doctor?

You completely ignored the first clause of that sentence. And yes, from the time I spent bolstering my resume for med school working/volunteering in several healthcare settings, I simply do not want to be a physician.

Job security and pay may look like everything when you're a stressed out law student wondering if he/she will ever get a job that pays the loans. It certainly is important. Law school is a gamble right now, and a gamble that I really can't imagine that most students are taking with both eyes open, given how risk-averse lawyers tend to be. I'm glad I took it, however.

I do think that something is profoundly wrong with the profession when we're letting tens of thousands of students start down the path toward a JD every year--at great expense--who do not feel the same way. It's bad for the student, bad for the lawyer he will eventually become, and very likely bad for the firm he will work for and the clients he will represent.

[Anonymous User]

Plus, in terms of personality fit, I'd honestly be happier doing doc review in a firm basement than being chief of department X at Hopkins.

Do some doc review for a few weeks, then see if you still believe that.
Doc review and $100,000 in student loans will have you going through the 5 stages of grief.

I would prefer bottom of the class in med school and doing primary care at a walk-in clinic earning a rock bottom doctor salary.
What is that? $80,000 for the worst doctor job?
Compare that to $20 per hour for doc review work where you are unemployed 50% of the time.
Seriously? You would rather have that than be a doctor?

You completely ignored the first clause of that sentence. And yes, from the time I spent bolstering my resume for med school working/volunteering in several healthcare settings, I simply do not want to be a physician.

Job security and pay may look like everything when you're a stressed out law student wondering if he/she will ever get a job that pays the loans. It certainly is important. Law school is a gamble right now, and a gamble that I really can't imagine that most students are taking with both eyes open, given how risk-averse lawyers tend to be. I'm glad I took it, however.

I do think that something is profoundly wrong with the profession when we're letting tens of thousands of students start down the path toward a JD every year--at great expense--who do not feel the same way. It's bad for the student, bad for the lawyer he will eventually become, and very likely bad for the firm he will work for and the clients he will represent.

This is not an issue of ignorance at a massive scale. The problem in my mind is that most law students don't -- at least in their perception -- have a decent alternative to going to law school. When stuck with a useless liberal arts degree, and staring down the prospect of being a barista, going to law school still harbors prestige for them even if it's a black hole of despair for most. They'll optimism bias their way into believing they'll be different and land on their feet -- perhaps by pointing to some 75-year-old John Marshall alum who hustled his way into Kirkland during the dinosaur age.

[mrloblaw]

This is not an issue of ignorance at a massive scale. The problem in my mind is that most law students don't -- at least in their perception -- have a decent alternative to going to law school. When stuck with a useless liberal arts degree, and staring down the prospect of being a barista, going to law school still harbors prestige for them even if it's a black hole of despair for most. They'll optimism bias their way into believing they'll be different and land on their feet -- perhaps by pointing to some 75-year-old John Marshall alum who hustled his way into Kirkland during the dinosaur age.

Quite right. I honestly think those students would be better off moving back in with the parents, taking a couple of volunteer internship-type positions in fields they're actually interested in, and then legitimately deciding that (a) further education is necessary, and (b) law school is a better option than spending a couple of years on an extra bachelor's and then doing what they really want to do.

22 year olds with no idea what they actually want to do should not feel that taking out $200k in debt to do something they have no real interest in is their only option. There's a fundamental problem in the system where there isn't someone in the pipeline to explain that to kids on the front end.

I'd argue that the greatest service med schools give their students is forcing the kids, even with stellar grades and MCATs, to justify the "Why med school?" question to a skeptical adcom. If the kid can't convince the school that he'd really rather be there than anywhere else, it isn't to his advantage to take out the student loans to attend the school. That's so much more true for a profession where there aren't even jobs waiting at the back end for most grads. If you don't even really want the jackpot, somebody should be around to dissuade you from purchasing the $200k lottery ticket.

[Anonymous User]

There are people who do med in the Caribbean and there chances of getting a halfway decent residency in the US are pretty bad. Also, it can be super depressing -- my friend's brother is in his first year at a Caribbean med and more than one of his classmates already tried to commit suicide. I'd say Caribbean med is pretty close to TTT law. And even in terms of US med, the loans can end up being even higher than law.

Believe me, there are plenty of things wrong with law school, but let's not make med school out to be all that and a bag of chips. There are people who get cruddy med jobs (I'm sure the docs that work at walk-in clinics and deal with 80 cases of strep throat per day feel presTTTigious). Plus, even in specialties like pediatrics, you get calls from crazy parents in the middle of the night if you're part of a practice and need to be "on call" (and some doctors totally hate their groups). So let's stop glamorizing med. It isn't ER or Gray's Anatomy.

[mrloblaw]

There are people who do med in the Caribbean and there chances of getting a halfway decent residency in the US are pretty bad. Also, it can be super depressing -- my friend's brother is in his first year at a Caribbean med and more than one of his classmates already tried to commit suicide. I'd say Caribbean med is pretty close to TTT law. And even in terms of US med, the loans can end up being even higher than law.

Believe me, there are plenty of things wrong with law school, but let's not make med school out to be all that and a bag of chips. There are people who get cruddy med jobs (I'm sure the docs that work at walk-in clinics and deal with 80 cases of strep throat per day feel presTTTigious). Plus, even in specialties like pediatrics, you get calls from crazy parents in the middle of the night if you're part of a practice and need to be "on call" (and some doctors totally hate their groups). So let's stop glamorizing med. It isn't ER or Gray's Anatomy.

I do have to conclude that the people arguing that medicine is just flat-out better than law have never actually had to wear a client's bodily fluids for a decent percentage of a shift because there's simply no time to shower/change, nor spent ~16 hours a day being coughed on by clients with highly contagious diseases.