Which firms take 2L grades into account for offers? Forum

[Anonymous User]

Aside from Gibson? If so, do they ask for transcripts? Do all firms ask for transcripts at the end of the summer?

[underdawg]

at least some firms never even ask (or just forget)

[Indifferent]

I have heard there are firms that do this, but they are not the standard. My firm did not.

[KMaine]

I think that many firms ask for them (mine did), but I am not really sure that they are a huge factor in the hiring decision at many places.

[kahechsof]

It is pretty dumb to care about grades once you've been there for 10 weeks and they know what your work looks like.

[BeenDidThat]

It is pretty dumb to care about grades once you've been there for 10 weeks and they know what your work looks like.

I disagree. Consistency of work product is a big deal, and ten weeks is not a long enough time to see if someone will produce well for years on end.

[Quinney]

Most of them do, but I don't think grades matter nearly as much as your work product.

[Anonymous User]

Aside from Gibson? If so, do they ask for transcripts? Do all firms ask for transcripts at the end of the summer?

Does Gibson actually care?

[Anonymous User]

I'm sure you need to submit decent grades, i.e. don't fail your classes. But I don't think you need to get all A's or anything, especially if you bust your ass during the summer for the firm.

[Anonymous User]

I'm sure you need to submit decent grades, i.e. don't fail your classes. But I don't think you need to get all A's or anything, especially if you bust your ass during the summer for the firm.

what if you were around top 5% first year, and then drop to top 1/3 after 2L?

[Anonymous User]

Most of them do, but I don't think grades matter nearly as much as your work product.

So for someone who had lower grades than what the firm would ideally want (the firm actually asked me to explain my grades during the screener), but received an offer anyway, would they be looking for improvement in my grades? If I don't improve, and my work product is mediocre, would that put me in danger of no-offer?

[Julio_El_Chavo]

Your work product is more important than your grades. 10 weeks is enough time for them to assign you work, give you deadlines, and see what you produce. If you produce clearly written, substantively accurate, relevant work product, the vast majority of firms don't care about your 2L and 3L grades.

[BeenDidThat]

Your work product is more important than your grades. 10 weeks is enough time for them to assign you work, give you deadlines, and see what you produce. If you produce clearly written, substantively accurate, relevant work product, the vast majority of firms don't care about your 2L and 3L grades.

I think many firms do care. The question is: how much? I fully agree that summer work product is a huge part of the equation, but firms are going to do a holistic evaluation. If your GPA drops .2 points, but you put in great work? You're probably fine. If you drop from top 1/3 to far sub-median? Might be a different story. I don't think I disagree with the spirit of your post, I just think the last sentence is hyperbolic.

[Anonymous User]

Aside from Gibson? If so, do they ask for transcripts? Do all firms ask for transcripts at the end of the summer?

Does Gibson actually care?

Former GDC SA here. This "GDC cares a ton about your grades and will no offer based on them" is really, really overplayed. They didn't even ask for a transcript from me before making an offer at the end of the summer, and my grades were good, but nothing spectacular, when I got the position in the first place. If you did bad work, and your grades dropped significantly, then they'll probably think hard before giving you an offer, but the firm's rate was well over 90% this summer, and I know several people (who all got offers) whose grades dropped a good amount between being hired and the summer.

[Anonymous User]

Aside from Gibson? If so, do they ask for transcripts? Do all firms ask for transcripts at the end of the summer?

Does Gibson actually care?

Former GDC SA here. This "GDC cares a ton about your grades and will no offer based on them" is really, really overplayed. They didn't even ask for a transcript from me before making an offer at the end of the summer, and my grades were good, but nothing spectacular, when I got the position in the first place. If you did bad work, and your grades dropped significantly, then they'll probably think hard before giving you an offer, but the firm's rate was well over 90% this summer, and I know several people (who all got offers) whose grades dropped a good amount between being hired and the summer.

Good to hear this. The 2L-grade drop --> no offer issue has been one reason I was hesitant to accept. Office specific, though?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone with any insight about this with respect to Kirkland?

[Anonymous User]

Aside from Gibson? If so, do they ask for transcripts? Do all firms ask for transcripts at the end of the summer?

Does Gibson actually care?

Former GDC SA here. This "GDC cares a ton about your grades and will no offer based on them" is really, really overplayed. They didn't even ask for a transcript from me before making an offer at the end of the summer, and my grades were good, but nothing spectacular, when I got the position in the first place. If you did bad work, and your grades dropped significantly, then they'll probably think hard before giving you an offer, but the firm's rate was well over 90% this summer, and I know several people (who all got offers) whose grades dropped a good amount between being hired and the summer.

Good to hear this. The 2L-grade drop --> no offer issue has been one reason I was hesitant to accept. Office specific, though?

Another Gibson SA here. I can corroborate this. NY office, which had a 100% offer rate this year.

[MBeezy11]

Almost all firms ask for your 2L grades but in a lot of cases the grades are not even available until after an offer decision is made. Also, if you do great work during the summer the firm is not going to no offer you because you did poorly in a single class. The only way your grades will come into play is if they show a complete lack of effort on your part. So don't go from top 10% to well below median and you will be fine.

[meshtdagn]

If your GPA goes up, do you get a raise?!

[Anonymous User]

Does Gibson actually care?

Former GDC SA here. This "GDC cares a ton about your grades and will no offer based on them" is really, really overplayed. They didn't even ask for a transcript from me before making an offer at the end of the summer, and my grades were good, but nothing spectacular, when I got the position in the first place. If you did bad work, and your grades dropped significantly, then they'll probably think hard before giving you an offer, but the firm's rate was well over 90% this summer, and I know several people (who all got offers) whose grades dropped a good amount between being hired and the summer.

Good to hear this. The 2L-grade drop --> no offer issue has been one reason I was hesitant to accept. Office specific, though?

+1 My grades dropped over .15 from the end of 1L to the end of 2L. My GDC office (non-NY, LA, DC) had 100% offer rate. Your work product is a million times more important.

Another Gibson SA here. I can corroborate this. NY office, which had a 100% offer rate this year.

[vanwinkle]

It is pretty dumb to care about grades once you've been there for 10 weeks and they know what your work looks like.

I disagree. Consistency of work product is a big deal, and ten weeks is not a long enough time to see if someone will produce well for years on end.

Ten weeks + two semesters of 1L grades is plenty enough. You shouldn't need more than that, and many firms don't.

[Anonymous User]

It is pretty dumb to care about grades once you've been there for 10 weeks and they know what your work looks like.

I disagree. Consistency of work product is a big deal, and ten weeks is not a long enough time to see if someone will produce well for years on end.

Ten weeks + two semesters of 1L grades is plenty enough. You shouldn't need more than that, and many firms don't.

I would like to know which DO. Have heard of Gibson (obviously), and apparently Latham...

[Anonymous User]

anyone know how 2L grades apply in the higher v100? (like v75-100 range)

[thesealocust]

Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.

[anon168]

Fact: Many firms never ask for or look at grades when making post-summer offers.

Thought Experiment: Consider the number of biglaw firms, their class sizes, and their (often at-or-near 100%) offer rates. Next, hypothesize two values: (1) the number of people who experience GPA drops, (2) the number of people who experience significant GPA drops, and (3) the number of people who either perform sub-par work or make grievous mistakes during their 8-12 week summer at a law firm. Assume that category (3) is almost automatic grounds for a no-offer, and we're trying to figure out how often categories (1) or (2) yield no-offers, based on the frequency of (3) vs. firm's offer rates.

I won't spoil the experiment by sharing my estimates of the above numbers, but any reasonable interpretation is going to be bounded by the fact that (a) most firms have very high offer rates and (b) bigger firms with bigger summer classes tend to have offer rates even closer to 100%. That latter fact means that a a disproportionate number of total summer associate positions are at firms with near-100% offer rates. One specific data point: fully 15-20% of all biglaw summer associate positions are within the NYC V15, most of whom have roughly 100% post-summer offer rates.

Conclusion: 2L grades are extremely important. If your 2L grades don't improve at Gibson Dun, you will be no-offered. Sometimes even summers with small GPA increases are no-offered.

Uh, I can you tell for a fact that that's not true.