K&E v. Cravath Forum

[Anonymous User]

Any reason to pick K&E NY over Cravath for corporate?

[PDaddy]

No. Both can be sweatshops...might as well go with slightly greater prestige.

[luthersloan]

I am pretty sure K&E's bonuses tend to be better. Also, if you are a 2L (which I would guess you are) Cravath has a rep for being really tough on summers in terms of work load. A friend of mine worked there and pulled at least one double all-nighter. I think K&E is easier on the summers at least.

[Anonymous User]

I am pretty sure K&E's bonuses tend to be better. Also, if you are a 2L (which I would guess you are) Cravath has a rep for being really tough on summers in terms of work load. A friend of mine worked there and pulled at least one double all-nighter. I think K&E is easier on the summers at least.

+1, particularly if you (OP) aren't jonesing to work with either firm's particular client base and are truly on the fence about this. Both are fantastic firms, but by and large, summers at K&E seem to be happier than summers at Cravath (I also know a summer who pulled several all-nighters at Cravath this year - luthersloan, maybe we know the same person?).

[Anonymous User]

cravath. the name on the resume will carry you to places.

[imchuckbass58]

I think if you have an overriding interest in PE M&A over public M&A, that might be a reason to choose K&E, but that's kind of a weird preference to have given that the two practices are very similar.

Also, if you're sure you're interested in bankruptcy, K&E is the clear choice.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't let the summer program scare you away. Some say Cravath summers aren't "fun"; others say they are just "honest": they don't sugarcoat the big firm experience. This is especially true in corporate. If you want to know what biglaw life is in the corporate department, don't shortchange yourself by picking a firm by the perks of their summer program. The worst thing that happens is that you end up working really hard for one summer, realize biglaw life isn't really for you, and transfer to a different firm/different city/different line of work. This is probably easier said than done, but its a better option than going to a firm with a party-all-the-time summer, then showing up for work the first day and being horribly surprised by the brutal work schedule of a real associate.

[quakeroats]

Cravath is almost always the wrong answer. Their name won't carry you anywhere that Kirkland's won't.

[Anonymous User]

What about the decision of K&E (Chi) vs. Cravath? Does this comparison just come down to geographic preference?

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't let the summer program scare you away. Some say Cravath summers aren't "fun"; others say they are just "honest": they don't sugarcoat the big firm experience. This is especially true in corporate. If you want to know what biglaw life is in the corporate department, don't shortchange yourself by picking a firm by the perks of their summer program. The worst thing that happens is that you end up working really hard for one summer, realize biglaw life isn't really for you, and transfer to a different firm/different city/different line of work. This is probably easier said than done, but its a better option than going to a firm with a party-all-the-time summer, then showing up for work the first day and being horribly surprised by the brutal work schedule of a real associate.

There's a difference between "working really hard" and "working for several weeks straight with no days off and having to respond to e-mails at 4 AM." I'm not saying this doesn't occasionally happen at some firms, but this seemed to be the norm for Cravath summers this year, which is why more than a few of them did 3L OCI at their respective schools despite having offers.

This is probably where the distinction between the rotation system (Cravath) and the free market system (K&E) comes into play: if you happen to be assigned to an associate who feels it's appropriate to e-mail you at all hours of the night with unreasonable demands, then you're stuck with them for an extended period of time, and your life will be a living hell for that entire rotation. In a free market system, you have the option of working with whomever you choose (and chooses you).

[Anonymous User]

Derailing the thread a little bit, but I'm assuming this means OP has an offer at K&E -- did you do your CB with the group on Wed? I'd like to know so I can stop waiting for an offer that's not coming lol

[terribleperson]

Cravath is almost always the wrong answer. Their name won't carry you anywhere that Kirkland's won't.

You're adorable.

[Anonymous User]

OP here; got the offer at Cravath, deciding whether to do the CB at K&E NY, sorry I don't know anything about K&E's offers thus far

[spondee]

I think if you have an overriding interest in PE M&A over public M&A, that might be a reason to choose K&E, but that's kind of a weird preference to have given that the two practices are very similar.

Also, if you're sure you're interested in bankruptcy, K&E is the clear choice.

+1.

Also, there's a big difference between the rotation system and the free market. The benefit of the first is that you may get a great ongoing mentoring relationship, but alternatively, you may get a horrible boss. The benefit of the second is that you have some control over what you work on and for who (at least if you do good work and people want to work with you), but if times are slow, you'll be in a shark tank.

[Bronte]

Cravath is almost always the wrong answer. Their name won't carry you anywhere that Kirkland's won't.

You're adorable.

You're unhelpful.

[terribleperson]

Cravath is almost always the wrong answer. Their name won't carry you anywhere that Kirkland's won't.

You're adorable.

You're unhelpful.

I made my disagreement with his statement as clear as you made your disagreement with mine. Also, are you defending the utility of "Cravath is almost always the wrong answer"?

Let's zoom out to real life for moment, if that won't blow the minds of too many TLSers. Cravath is one of the most highly regarded firms in our chosen profession. The biggest criticism it gets is that it requires you to marry your job. There are millions of people in the country married to their jobs because that's what they wanted. Many of them are lawyers. Many of us are planning on voluntarily joining that group.

Too many TLSers have decided that "the high road" is to admire, and to encourage the following of, those willing to pursue another path while castigating those who simply want something different in their lives. You can pretend you're trying to better inform your peers, but statements like "X firm is almost always the wrong answer" proves that you're not out to inform people.

[Anonymous User]

OP here; got the offer at Cravath, deciding whether to do the CB at K&E NY, sorry I don't know anything about K&E's offers thus far

Was this an end of day offer? Or a few days after? My CB is coming up and I'm trying to decide whether the "offer at the end of the day or you're not getting one" is a thing of the past.

[Bronte]

I really don't think choosing one V10 over another is "taking the high road" or has anything to do with that concept. Advising people to choose firms based on where they believe they will be happier is neither naive nor bleeding heart.

[Old Gregg]

The biggest criticism it gets is that it requires you to marry your job. There are millions of people in the country married to their jobs because that's what they wanted. Many of them are lawyers. Many of us are planning on voluntarily joining that group.

To think taking K&E over Cravath doesn't require you to marry your job is a mistake. We're not talking about Cravath vs. Ice Miller here.

[terribleperson]

I really don't think choosing one V10 over another is "taking the high road" or has anything to do with that concept. Advising people to choose firms based on where they believe they will be happier is neither naive nor bleeding heart.

"Cravath is almost always the wrong answer" is not limited to a single comparison, and it, by its own terms, ignores the different preferences people have.

[terribleperson]

The biggest criticism it gets is that it requires you to marry your job. There are millions of people in the country married to their jobs because that's what they wanted. Many of them are lawyers. Many of us are planning on voluntarily joining that group.

To think taking K&E over Cravath doesn't require you to marry your job is a mistake. We're not talking about Cravath vs. Ice Miller here.

I completely agree with you.

[rayiner]

At both firms you'll work your ass off. Cravath gives you a better name, Kirkland gives you better bonuses.

The decisions should be made based on rotation system versus free market, though. At either firm to get the top exit options you'll have to do well, and different sorts of people do well in these two systems. Are you a little socially awkward (like most law students)? Then the rotation system, where you don't have to drum up your own work, and get intense training will be better. Are you good at selling yourself? Then the free market system, where you can out-hustle your classmates and get the best work will be better for you.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't let the summer program scare you away. Some say Cravath summers aren't "fun"; others say they are just "honest": they don't sugarcoat the big firm experience. This is especially true in corporate. If you want to know what biglaw life is in the corporate department, don't shortchange yourself by picking a firm by the perks of their summer program. The worst thing that happens is that you end up working really hard for one summer, realize biglaw life isn't really for you, and transfer to a different firm/different city/different line of work. This is probably easier said than done, but its a better option than going to a firm with a party-all-the-time summer, then showing up for work the first day and being horribly surprised by the brutal work schedule of a real associate.

There's a difference between "working really hard" and "working for several weeks straight with no days off and having to respond to e-mails at 4 AM." I'm not saying this doesn't occasionally happen at some firms, but this seemed to be the norm for Cravath summers this year, which is why more than a few of them did 3L OCI at their respective schools despite having offers.

This is probably where the distinction between the rotation system (Cravath) and the free market system (K&E) comes into play: if you happen to be assigned to an associate who feels it's appropriate to e-mail you at all hours of the night with unreasonable demands, then you're stuck with them for an extended period of time, and your life will be a living hell for that entire rotation. In a free market system, you have the option of working with whomever you choose (and chooses you).

This was not the norm @ Cravath this summer. The norm was consistent nights until 8pm, some weeks 10pm, and occasionally nights past midnight. Weekend/holiday work was also common. Is it possible you'll get slammed all summer? Yes. Will they protect you because you are a summer? No. Is it guaranteed you will work like a dog all summer? Absolutely not. Some people left at 6pm consistently; some were nearly sleeping under their desks. It depends on the partner and the work available.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn't let the summer program scare you away. Some say Cravath summers aren't "fun"; others say they are just "honest": they don't sugarcoat the big firm experience. This is especially true in corporate. If you want to know what biglaw life is in the corporate department, don't shortchange yourself by picking a firm by the perks of their summer program. The worst thing that happens is that you end up working really hard for one summer, realize biglaw life isn't really for you, and transfer to a different firm/different city/different line of work. This is probably easier said than done, but its a better option than going to a firm with a party-all-the-time summer, then showing up for work the first day and being horribly surprised by the brutal work schedule of a real associate.

There's a difference between "working really hard" and "working for several weeks straight with no days off and having to respond to e-mails at 4 AM." I'm not saying this doesn't occasionally happen at some firms, but this seemed to be the norm for Cravath summers this year, which is why more than a few of them did 3L OCI at their respective schools despite having offers.

This is probably where the distinction between the rotation system (Cravath) and the free market system (K&E) comes into play: if you happen to be assigned to an associate who feels it's appropriate to e-mail you at all hours of the night with unreasonable demands, then you're stuck with them for an extended period of time, and your life will be a living hell for that entire rotation. In a free market system, you have the option of working with whomever you choose (and chooses you).

This was not the norm @ Cravath this summer. The norm was consistent nights until 8pm, some weeks 10pm, and occasionally nights past midnight. Weekend/holiday work was also common. Is it possible you'll get slammed all summer? Yes. Will they protect you because you are a summer? No. Is it guaranteed you will work like a dog all summer? Absolutely not. Some people left at 6pm consistently; some were nearly sleeping under their desks. It depends on the partner and the work available.

So what you're saying is, working until 8-10 PM, with some nights past midnight, with work on weekends and July 4th, was the norm at Cravath...for its summer class. And that some summers were consistently slammed and pulling all nighters.

Look, I understand that most people in BigLaw are mentally prepared to work to death, but I haven't heard of a single other firm -- including K&E -- where summers were worked half as hard. Concerts and baseball games and happy hours are some of the perks that make working in BigLaw worth it; during your summer associateship, you should be trying to impress your firm and your firm should be trying to impress you. Is the Cravath name really worth it? Is the goal to have "exit options," or is the goal to find a place where you actually want to stay on for more than three years?

[terribleperson]

I wouldn't let the summer program scare you away. Some say Cravath summers aren't "fun"; others say they are just "honest": they don't sugarcoat the big firm experience. This is especially true in corporate. If you want to know what biglaw life is in the corporate department, don't shortchange yourself by picking a firm by the perks of their summer program. The worst thing that happens is that you end up working really hard for one summer, realize biglaw life isn't really for you, and transfer to a different firm/different city/different line of work. This is probably easier said than done, but its a better option than going to a firm with a party-all-the-time summer, then showing up for work the first day and being horribly surprised by the brutal work schedule of a real associate.

There's a difference between "working really hard" and "working for several weeks straight with no days off and having to respond to e-mails at 4 AM." I'm not saying this doesn't occasionally happen at some firms, but this seemed to be the norm for Cravath summers this year, which is why more than a few of them did 3L OCI at their respective schools despite having offers.

This is probably where the distinction between the rotation system (Cravath) and the free market system (K&E) comes into play: if you happen to be assigned to an associate who feels it's appropriate to e-mail you at all hours of the night with unreasonable demands, then you're stuck with them for an extended period of time, and your life will be a living hell for that entire rotation. In a free market system, you have the option of working with whomever you choose (and chooses you).

This was not the norm @ Cravath this summer. The norm was consistent nights until 8pm, some weeks 10pm, and occasionally nights past midnight. Weekend/holiday work was also common. Is it possible you'll get slammed all summer? Yes. Will they protect you because you are a summer? No. Is it guaranteed you will work like a dog all summer? Absolutely not. Some people left at 6pm consistently; some were nearly sleeping under their desks. It depends on the partner and the work available.

So what you're saying is, working until 8-10 PM, with some nights past midnight, with work on weekends and July 4th, was the norm at Cravath...for its summer class. And that some summers were consistently slammed and pulling all nighters.

Look, I understand that most people in BigLaw are mentally prepared to work to death, but I haven't heard of a single other firm -- including K&E -- where summers were worked half as hard. Concerts and baseball games and happy hours are some of the perks that make working in BigLaw worth it; during your summer associateship, you should be trying to impress your firm and your firm should be trying to impress you. Is the Cravath name really worth it? Is the goal to have "exit options," or is the goal to find a place where you actually want to stay on for more than three years?

Don't you want to know exactly what it's like to work at a firm before accepting an offer to begin your career there? A substantial difference in hours worked by full-time associates is a legitimate concern. But the only concern I would have over summer hours is if they're not representative enough.