V15 Partner/OCI Interviewer Answering Questions... Forum

[Anonymous User]

Not sure if this has been asked earlier in the thread, but I am at a TT around 60s in the top 15% and LR. I have heard that many of the V100s want at least top 10% from our school. My question is does your firm, and peer firms, have strict cutoffs or are they flexable? (list of firms coming and reqs not released yet).

[Anonymous User]

Hi there,

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions. It's been pretty informative. I am a rising 2L, top third at a T10-14 with a strong professional background. I am also in the military reserves right now. Unfortunately, during the write-on competition, I had a last-second call out to a military exercise and I was unable to finish my article. I submitted the work that I had completed, but I suspect that I will not be chosen for a journal. On the flip side, I am the sole author of an article that will be published in an international law journal this fall. As well, a significant portion of my duties this summer has involved being a copy editor for the legal journal of one of the largest IGOs. So, a) how badly will not being on a journal hurt me, and b) how should I address not being on a journal in the interviews at OCI?

[itbdvorm]

Hi there,

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions. It's been pretty informative. I am a rising 2L, top third at a T10-14 with a strong professional background. I am also in the military reserves right now. Unfortunately, during the write-on competition, I had a last-second call out to a military exercise and I was unable to finish my article. I submitted the work that I had completed, but I suspect that I will not be chosen for a journal. On the flip side, I am the sole author of an article that will be published in an international law journal this fall. As well, a significant portion of my duties this summer has involved being a copy editor for the legal journal of one of the largest IGOs. So, a) how badly will not being on a journal hurt me, and b) how should I address not being on a journal in the interviews at OCI?

No one will bring it up - if they do, explain. However, are you going to continue to be in the reserves when you start? Not an issue now (and in fact a plus) but firms may be worried you'll get called away.

[FSK]

First off, thanks for doing this. It's nice to hear something that isn't coming from an employment office or other slanted source.

Second, I was wondering about the prospects of a candidate that doesn't work as a summer associate after 2L. For reference, I'm at MVP, grades are about at the median, maybe a tick below or above. Nothing great as far as WE goes. I am working in a US Attorney's office this summer and really enjoy it. I plan to apply to some jobs at DOJ and another USAO for next summer in addition to doing OCI and mass mailing.

The NALP pages I have looked at, however, seem to suggest that it is rare for a firm to hire an entry-level candidate who hadn't been a summer associate. Does working as something other than a summer associate really hamstring a candidate's chances of getting a firm job after graduation? Moreover, how much of an uphill battle is it to get a job at a firm other than one at which you have been a summer associate?

Not sure whether this is flame, but it's a HUGE uphill battle. 3L hiring is nearly non-existent these days and there's usually a compelling reason (for example, a candidate who summered at Cravath and received an offer needs to move to LA for personal reasons - that person has a good shot). There are rare exceptions (I guess I'd suggest that 3Ls looking for positions pitch their interest in bank finance - it's incredibly hot right now), but in general you will have a very tough shot.

You should generally assume that you spend your 2L summer doing what you want to do after graduation. There are exceptions (clerking, etc.) and I have no idea if doing 2L summer at a firm precludes trying to get hired at DOJ/USAO after graduation (no idea how that process works), if that's what you really want to do. But if you want to work at a firm immediately after graduation, work at a firm 2L year.

This might not be your wheel house, but worth a shot. Lets assume I get a V25-50 firm in DC, but need to be in another major market for S/O. Won't know until well after I've accepted the offer where I need to be. Is changing firm office possible? I assume 3LOLCI isn't going to yield much.

[itbdvorm]

First off, thanks for doing this. It's nice to hear something that isn't coming from an employment office or other slanted source.

Second, I was wondering about the prospects of a candidate that doesn't work as a summer associate after 2L. For reference, I'm at MVP, grades are about at the median, maybe a tick below or above. Nothing great as far as WE goes. I am working in a US Attorney's office this summer and really enjoy it. I plan to apply to some jobs at DOJ and another USAO for next summer in addition to doing OCI and mass mailing.

The NALP pages I have looked at, however, seem to suggest that it is rare for a firm to hire an entry-level candidate who hadn't been a summer associate. Does working as something other than a summer associate really hamstring a candidate's chances of getting a firm job after graduation? Moreover, how much of an uphill battle is it to get a job at a firm other than one at which you have been a summer associate?

Not sure whether this is flame, but it's a HUGE uphill battle. 3L hiring is nearly non-existent these days and there's usually a compelling reason (for example, a candidate who summered at Cravath and received an offer needs to move to LA for personal reasons - that person has a good shot). There are rare exceptions (I guess I'd suggest that 3Ls looking for positions pitch their interest in bank finance - it's incredibly hot right now), but in general you will have a very tough shot.

You should generally assume that you spend your 2L summer doing what you want to do after graduation. There are exceptions (clerking, etc.) and I have no idea if doing 2L summer at a firm precludes trying to get hired at DOJ/USAO after graduation (no idea how that process works), if that's what you really want to do. But if you want to work at a firm immediately after graduation, work at a firm 2L year.

This might not be your wheel house, but worth a shot. Lets assume I get a V25-50 firm in DC, but need to be in another major market for S/O. Won't know until well after I've accepted the offer where I need to be. Is changing firm office possible? I assume 3LOLCI isn't going to yield much.

Changing firm office is often possible (especially if you're getting hired into the DC office, which may have higher standards).

[Anonymous User]

So judging from your comments earlier, if you're at a very competitive firm 2L summer in NY or DC that doesn't have other domestic offices, like Cravath, Cleary, Wachtell, and then need to move out to another market (CA) after graduation, that's feasible as a 3L? Would you have to take a step down, or could you stay roughly at the same level of practice, e.g., Gibson LA? Coming from a top school with good 1L grades, at least. Thanks.

[itbdvorm]

So judging from your comments earlier, if you're at a very competitive firm 2L summer in NY or DC that doesn't have other domestic offices, like Cravath, Cleary, Wachtell, and then need to move out to another market (CA) after graduation, that's feasible as a 3L? Would you have to take a step down, or could you stay roughly at the same level of practice, e.g., Gibson LA? Coming from a top school with good 1L grades, at least. Thanks.

It's more feasible. The reality is it's going to be much easier to do so after a year or so than straight away (because then you're being hired for a potential actual need, rather than a need a year out). Easiest remains transferring offices.

[Anonymous User]

How much does Law Review matter for people chasing transactional work?

I'm top 15-20% at a CCN school. Only want NY big law. I think my GPA at least gave me at least a chance at most of the NY powerhouses, with Wachtell and S&C still out of reach. Will Law Review change my odds there? It definitely doesn't hurt, but does it help my odds if I know I don't want litigation?

helps

I realize i'm far out of the running at v15 firms; but how much weight does significant work experience help when going into OCI especially if grades are at, or slightly above median at T25? M&A is my desired practice group. I'm currently in house at a VC/PEG firm which has a primary focus on M&A.

I worked for over 2 yrs (3 yrs if you include an internship with the firm) doing M&A (both domestic and cross border). Middle market focused with most transactions around $200-500M in deal size and had good exposure to the deals - was the senior associate on the last few deals i worked on. Unfortunately my firm was one of the firms you don't hear of too often b/c of how they are structured, but they are the 3rd largest in the world when using aggregate deal value. We weren't a business brokerage.

Prior to IBanking I also started and ran my own company in undergrad. So that's also on my resume.

thoughts?

[itbdvorm]

How much does Law Review matter for people chasing transactional work?

I'm top 15-20% at a CCN school. Only want NY big law. I think my GPA at least gave me at least a chance at most of the NY powerhouses, with Wachtell and S&C still out of reach. Will Law Review change my odds there? It definitely doesn't hurt, but does it help my odds if I know I don't want litigation?

helps

I realize i'm far out of the running at v15 firms; but how much weight does significant work experience help when going into OCI especially if grades are at, or slightly above median at T25? M&A is my desired practice group. I'm currently in house at a VC/PEG firm which has a primary focus on M&A.

I worked for over 2 yrs (3 yrs if you include an internship with the firm) doing M&A (both domestic and cross border). Middle market focused with most transactions around $200-500M in deal size and had good exposure to the deals - was the senior associate on the last few deals i worked on. Unfortunately my firm was one of the firms you don't hear of too often b/c of how they are structured, but they are the 3rd largest in the world when using aggregate deal value. We weren't a business brokerage.

Prior to IBanking I also started and ran my own company in undergrad. So that's also on my resume.

thoughts?

Helps for sure. Though I might want to see if you could stick w/that firm full-time...

[Anonymous User]

How much does Law Review matter for people chasing transactional work?

I'm top 15-20% at a CCN school. Only want NY big law. I think my GPA at least gave me at least a chance at most of the NY powerhouses, with Wachtell and S&C still out of reach. Will Law Review change my odds there? It definitely doesn't hurt, but does it help my odds if I know I don't want litigation?

helps

I realize i'm far out of the running at v15 firms; but how much weight does significant work experience help when going into OCI especially if grades are at, or slightly above median at T25? M&A is my desired practice group. I'm currently in house at a VC/PEG firm which has a primary focus on M&A.

I worked for over 2 yrs (3 yrs if you include an internship with the firm) doing M&A (both domestic and cross border). Middle market focused with most transactions around $200-500M in deal size and had good exposure to the deals - was the senior associate on the last few deals i worked on. Unfortunately my firm was one of the firms you don't hear of too often b/c of how they are structured, but they are the 3rd largest in the world when using aggregate deal value. We weren't a business brokerage.

Prior to IBanking I also started and ran my own company in undergrad. So that's also on my resume.

thoughts?

Helps for sure. Though I might want to see if you could stick w/that firm full-time...

Already had that discussion and while it might be an option - they haven't said yes, but then again haven't said no. They (GC and associate GCs) have told me go to a firm - big or mid size - before coming in house.

[Anonymous User]

Also on the above question. An interviewer at a V5 - which i know i'll have no chance at - suggested I leave my GPA off my resume if i do send it to these top firms - which i will because of my experience. My GPA isn't bad, but relative to my peers at the firm it's a few tenths below what would be expected. They said my resume would have otherwise at least given me a screener and that my interview skills are my strong point, but seeing the GPA up top and it being where it is would almost always be a distraction in an interview and/or cause it to go straight to the "no" pile. Their inclination was if they didn't see the GPA they really weren't thinking of it at first and would see my experience (Private Equity/Venture Capital, Investment Banking, Co Founder, Mergers and Acquisitions, etc). Plus, they would have received my resume and could always look there too when doing a full evaluation. Whereas with the GPA up top, they would see it and not look much further and kill my chance for an interview.

If you saw a resume from a T25 w/o a GPA, do you automatically assume bad grades or does it not hit you right away? How can one mitigate a lower GPA when sending it out on a resume when you can't speak to it?

[itbdvorm]

I realize i'm far out of the running at v15 firms; but how much weight does significant work experience help when going into OCI especially if grades are at, or slightly above median at T25? M&A is my desired practice group. I'm currently in house at a VC/PEG firm which has a primary focus on M&A.

I worked for over 2 yrs (3 yrs if you include an internship with the firm) doing M&A (both domestic and cross border). Middle market focused with most transactions around $200-500M in deal size and had good exposure to the deals - was the senior associate on the last few deals i worked on. Unfortunately my firm was one of the firms you don't hear of too often b/c of how they are structured, but they are the 3rd largest in the world when using aggregate deal value. We weren't a business brokerage.

Prior to IBanking I also started and ran my own company in undergrad. So that's also on my resume.

thoughts?

Helps for sure. Though I might want to see if you could stick w/that firm full-time...

Already had that discussion and while it might be an option - they haven't said yes, but then again haven't said no. They (GC and associate GCs) have told me go to a firm - big or mid size - before coming in house.

Ask them for some recommendations / referrals if they're willing. That would help.

[itbdvorm]

Also on the above question. An interviewer at a V5 - which i know i'll have no chance at - suggested I leave my GPA off my resume if i do send it to these top firms - which i will because of my experience. My GPA isn't bad, but relative to my peers at the firm it's a few tenths below what would be expected. They said my resume would have otherwise at least given me a screener and that my interview skills are my strong point, but seeing the GPA up top and it being where it is would almost always be a distraction in an interview and/or cause it to go straight to the "no" pile. Their inclination was if they didn't see the GPA they really weren't thinking of it at first and would see my experience (Private Equity/Venture Capital, Investment Banking, Co Founder, Mergers and Acquisitions, etc). Plus, they would have received my resume and could always look there too when doing a full evaluation. Whereas with the GPA up top, they would see it and not look much further and kill my chance for an interview.

If you saw a resume from a T25 w/o a GPA, do you automatically assume bad grades or does it not hit you right away? How can one mitigate a lower GPA when sending it out on a resume when you can't speak to it?

Include transcript (which people will ask for anyway). But that is the right answer.

[Anonymous User]

Hi there,

Thanks for taking the time to answer questions. It's been pretty informative. I am a rising 2L, top third at a T10-14 with a strong professional background. I am also in the military reserves right now. Unfortunately, during the write-on competition, I had a last-second call out to a military exercise and I was unable to finish my article. I submitted the work that I had completed, but I suspect that I will not be chosen for a journal. On the flip side, I am the sole author of an article that will be published in an international law journal this fall. As well, a significant portion of my duties this summer has involved being a copy editor for the legal journal of one of the largest IGOs. So, a) how badly will not being on a journal hurt me, and b) how should I address not being on a journal in the interviews at OCI?

No one will bring it up - if they do, explain. However, are you going to continue to be in the reserves when you start? Not an issue now (and in fact a plus) but firms may be worried you'll get called away.

Appreciate that. I will likely be finished with the reserves at the end of summer 2016, so there won't be a problem with call-ups. Thanks for that point as well - I'll be sure to make them aware of that.

[Anonymous User]

is there a source to learn about the culture at various firms in NY and Boston other than callbacks/interviews/associates/partners? the purpose would be to help shape a bid list. maybe the best answer here is TLS or older students who worked summers in NY or Boston.

Also, is working NY biglaw unique in terms of hours/legal culture/firm life, etc. There are different practice focuses (NY is epicenter of corporate work, DC is gov/regulatory, boston does a lot of bio science & pharmaceutical work, etc.), but is NY a different beast in other respects (understanding that there is high variability between firms)? Ppl talk about NY biglaw like it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing...

i wonder if it is easier to put in 5 years (or even shoot for partner) in a non-NY biglaw office than in a NY office?

Thanks for the thread. Massively helpful.

[itbdvorm]

is there a source to learn about the culture at various firms in NY and Boston other than callbacks/interviews/associates/partners? the purpose would be to help shape a bid list. maybe the best answer here is TLS or older students who worked summers in NY or Boston.

Also, is working NY biglaw unique in terms of hours/legal culture/firm life, etc. There are different practice focuses (NY is epicenter of corporate work, DC is gov/regulatory, boston does a lot of bio science & pharmaceutical work, etc.), but is NY a different beast in other respects (understanding that there is high variability between firms)? Ppl talk about NY biglaw like it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing...

i wonder if it is easier to put in 5 years (or even shoot for partner) in a non-NY biglaw office than in a NY office?

Thanks for the thread. Massively helpful.

People talk about NY biglaw that way because, it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing. Most demanding clients, shortest timeframes, highest profile deals. But (generally) best training, best experience, best exit opportunities.

I personally think that ~two years of training at a top NY corporate firm followed by moving elsewhere is the best shot, but I've never done it, so take it with a grain of salt.

As for culture, best bet is people you know/trust who have gone through the experience. But for the most part people are comparing apples and oranges since so few will have actually experienced more than one...

[Anonymous User]

is there a source to learn about the culture at various firms in NY and Boston other than callbacks/interviews/associates/partners? the purpose would be to help shape a bid list. maybe the best answer here is TLS or older students who worked summers in NY or Boston.

Also, is working NY biglaw unique in terms of hours/legal culture/firm life, etc. There are different practice focuses (NY is epicenter of corporate work, DC is gov/regulatory, boston does a lot of bio science & pharmaceutical work, etc.), but is NY a different beast in other respects (understanding that there is high variability between firms)? Ppl talk about NY biglaw like it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing...

i wonder if it is easier to put in 5 years (or even shoot for partner) in a non-NY biglaw office than in a NY office?

Thanks for the thread. Massively helpful.

People talk about NY biglaw that way because, it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing. Most demanding clients, shortest timeframes, highest profile deals. But (generally) best training, best experience, best exit opportunities.

I personally think that ~two years of training at a top NY corporate firm followed by moving elsewhere is the best shot, but I've never done it, so take it with a grain of salt.

As for culture, best bet is people you know/trust who have gone through the experience. But for the most part people are comparing apples and oranges since so few will have actually experienced more than one...

Thanks for the response--what i was looking for. ~2 years being the time where you become decently marketable to other firms/in-house positions? I was under the impression that exit options were better at around 5 years, but perhaps you say "best shot" because at around 2, you get decent options without grinding through an additional 3 years?

[itbdvorm]

is there a source to learn about the culture at various firms in NY and Boston other than callbacks/interviews/associates/partners? the purpose would be to help shape a bid list. maybe the best answer here is TLS or older students who worked summers in NY or Boston.

Also, is working NY biglaw unique in terms of hours/legal culture/firm life, etc. There are different practice focuses (NY is epicenter of corporate work, DC is gov/regulatory, boston does a lot of bio science & pharmaceutical work, etc.), but is NY a different beast in other respects (understanding that there is high variability between firms)? Ppl talk about NY biglaw like it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing...

i wonder if it is easier to put in 5 years (or even shoot for partner) in a non-NY biglaw office than in a NY office?

Thanks for the thread. Massively helpful.

People talk about NY biglaw that way because, it is, by quite a large margin, the most soul-crushing. Most demanding clients, shortest timeframes, highest profile deals. But (generally) best training, best experience, best exit opportunities.

I personally think that ~two years of training at a top NY corporate firm followed by moving elsewhere is the best shot, but I've never done it, so take it with a grain of salt.

As for culture, best bet is people you know/trust who have gone through the experience. But for the most part people are comparing apples and oranges since so few will have actually experienced more than one...

Thanks for the response--what i was looking for. ~2 years being the time where you become decently marketable to other firms/in-house positions? I was under the impression that exit options were better at around 5 years, but perhaps you say "best shot" because at around 2, you get decent options without grinding through an additional 3 years?

Sorry - I was thinking "best shot for success at a firm outside of NYC". I think 2 years gives you some groundwork, etc. - some big deals, lots of hours, trial by fire/pressure cooker. After that the marginal benefit of each additional year may be limited, though situations vary widely.

[Anonymous User]

Does being a minority give you a boost in OCIs? How do you let an interviewer know you are a minority if it's not obvious? I am Native American but don't look like it. If I could get a boost from that I'd like to but I don't know how to bring it up, aside from mentioning pro bono work for Native Americans that I've done. Also, if you're asked as a minority how you could aid in the firms' diversity, what kind of responses would be good? Thanks!

[Nebby]

Does being a minority give you a boost in OCIs? How do you let an interviewer know you are a minority if it's not obvious? I am Native American but don't look like it. If I could get a boost from that I'd like to but I don't know how to bring it up, aside from mentioning pro bono work for Native Americans that I've done. Also, if you're asked as a minority how you could aid in the firms' diversity, what kind of responses would be good? Thanks!

This seems like a hard question for some white V15 Senior Associate to answer. How much has your diversity affected your life if you can't even put it into words?

[mephistopheles]

Does being a minority give you a boost in OCIs? How do you let an interviewer know you are a minority if it's not obvious? I am Native American but don't look like it. If I could get a boost from that I'd like to but I don't know how to bring it up, aside from mentioning pro bono work for Native Americans that I've done. Also, if you're asked as a minority how you could aid in the firms' diversity, what kind of responses would be good? Thanks!

This seems like a hard question for some white V15 Senior Associate to answer. How much has your diversity affected your life if you can't even put it into words?

but.. but, you just could never understand!

[Nebby]

Ha. I'm not being facetious. A diversity statement is a really personal and specialized part of the application. It's difficult for someone who hasn't had the same experiences to weigh in on that experience.

[Anonymous User]

Ha. I'm not being facetious. A diversity statement is a really personal and specialized part of the application. It's difficult for someone who hasn't had the same experiences to weigh in on that experience.

Different anon but most firms ask (for scholarships anyway) "how will you contribute to diversity in this firm?".
I understand how being diverse can affect you and your life but I don't understand how to answer the above question.

[Danger Zone]

Does being a minority give you a boost in OCIs? How do you let an interviewer know you are a minority if it's not obvious? I am Native American but don't look like it. If I could get a boost from that I'd like to but I don't know how to bring it up, aside from mentioning pro bono work for Native Americans that I've done. Also, if you're asked as a minority how you could aid in the firms' diversity, what kind of responses would be good? Thanks!

This seems like a hard question for some white V15 Senior Associate to answer. How much has your diversity affected your life if you can't even put it into words?

Your opinion is fucking useless in a thread where a senior associate is answering questions. Fuck off half breed.

user has been banned for calling someone a half breed.

[5ky]

Does being a minority give you a boost in OCIs? How do you let an interviewer know you are a minority if it's not obvious? I am Native American but don't look like it. If I could get a boost from that I'd like to but I don't know how to bring it up, aside from mentioning pro bono work for Native Americans that I've done. Also, if you're asked as a minority how you could aid in the firms' diversity, what kind of responses would be good? Thanks!

This seems like a hard question for some white V15 Senior Associate to answer. How much has your diversity affected your life if you can't even put it into words?

Your opinion is fucking useless in a thread where a senior associate is answering questions. Fuck off half breed.

You are angry all of the time, dude. You need to chill out and get off of TLS for a while.