UVA Law’s Employment Numbers Are Less Than Impressive? Forum

[JCougar]

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Emails to large numbers of students or alums are normally BCCed to protect the recipients’ anonymity. This email, sent by Assistant Career Services Dean Steve Hopson on August 1, was inadvertently addressed without BCC to 100 addressees — purportedly all those members of the Class of 2011 who are still seeking permanent employment. According to a post-graduation press release from the Law School (http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/news/2 ... holder.htm), 372 students graduated with JDs and 21 graduated with LLMs in 2011. If the list includes only JD students, this means that almost 27 percent of the Class of 2011 remains unemployed. If the list also includes LLM students, the number is over 25 percent.

Caveats:

1) This is an ATL article and it's based on circumstantial evidence so far...although it's pretty reasonable evidence. And UVA has no response yet.

2) Not trying to poke UVA in the eye or anything. Obviously, I go to WUSTTTL and I'd imagine the situation here is at least as bad and likely worse, judging from stories I've heard from recent graduates. But this is very believable.

3) I don't even think it's horrible for some people to not have automatic jobs after graduation. But I do think it's morally wrong to put people in so much debt who are trying to do the right thing and educate themselves.

Conclusion: Paying sticker anywhere outside the T5 is an enormous risk these days. In fact, anything less than a 50% scholarship is bordering on a bad idea. Unless you have parents or grandparents that are going to help you pay down your debt. There is no legitimate reason for law schools to be charging as much as they do.

[bgdddymtty]

Plenty of discussion of that subject here.

[Anonymous User]

Class of 2011 got raped. That is not news to anyone. I'd put our employment numbers up against any school in the country outside the T6.

Class of 2012 has significantly better numbers.

[rayiner]

Class of 2011 got raped. That is not news to anyone. I'd put our employment numbers up against any school in the country outside the T6.

Class of 2012 has significantly better numbers.

Even at CLS only 70% of class of 2011 OCI participants got a job out of OCI. With PI hiring being basically frozen, what %-age of the rest do you think found work. Maybe half? That's still probably 20% of the class with no job at graduation.

[lawyerwannabe]

Old news is olddddddd.

[Anonymous User]

Conclusion: Paying sticker anywhere outside the T5 is an enormous risk these days.

And you just pulled this arbitrary cutoff straight out of your ass. Look the economy is garbage; a 1 or 2 ranking difference isn't going to cause some dramatic boost in employment prospects. If you're going to make an arbitrary cutoff you might as well pick one that's more realistic/believable, like HYS. Employers tight on hiring aren't going to be thinking "Damn things are terrible right now, we've got to cut hiring on those Penn grads and restrict it to those economically safer for the firm UChicago ones." The only people who think like that are those who have over 3000 posts on this website or autoadmit.com.

[bjsesq]

Conclusion: Paying sticker anywhere outside the T5 is an enormous risk these days.

And you just pulled this arbitrary cutoff straight out of your ass. Look the economy is garbage; a 1 or 2 ranking difference isn't going to cause some dramatic boost in employment prospects. If you're going to make an arbitrary cutoff you might as well pick one that's more realistic/believable, like HYS. Employers tight on hiring aren't going to be thinking "Damn things are terrible right now, we've got to cut hiring on those Penn grads and restrict it to those economically safer for the firm UChicago ones." The only people who think like that are those who have over 3000 posts on this website or autoadmit.com.

Cool use of anonymous function, brah.

[quakeroats]

Class of 2012 has significantly better numbers.

Numbers or it didn't happen: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=156483

[JCougar]

Conclusion: Paying sticker anywhere outside the T5 is an enormous risk these days.

And you just pulled this arbitrary cutoff straight out of your ass. Look the economy is garbage; a 1 or 2 ranking difference isn't going to cause some dramatic boost in employment prospects. If you're going to make an arbitrary cutoff you might as well pick one that's more realistic/believable, like HYS. Employers tight on hiring aren't going to be thinking "Damn things are terrible right now, we've got to cut hiring on those Penn grads and restrict it to those economically safer for the firm UChicago ones." The only people who think like that are those who have over 3000 posts on this website or autoadmit.com.

Damn, dude. I thought it was a given that all these cutoffs are arbitrary and could be argued one way or the other. Nothing to get upset over. Of course I pulled it out of my ass. Everyone who lists a cutoff does the same thing, whether it be T14, T18, T25, T30, etc.

I chose T5 because I personally see Chicago as not in the same peer grouping as NYU, but whatever.

[JCougar]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

[bjsesq]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

[JCougar]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

I'm obvously trolling a little bit, but if you take one look at the leverage ratio difference between NYC firms and Chicago firms, it's pretty significant. Not to mention higher billable hours standards for NYC.

[Anonymous User]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

I don't think Chicago is quite secondary enough of a market for this to be true. That would be more of a market like Birmingham or Minneapolis or something.

[bjsesq]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

I'm obvously trolling a little bit, but if you take one look at the leverage ratio difference between NYC firms and Chicago firms, it's pretty significant. Not to mention higher billable hours standards for NYC.

Depends on the firm. You are gonna be putting in the hours at the big dogs like Kirkland. You aren't gonna make partner either. Only difference is, you're doing it in Chicago.

[JCougar]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

I don't think Chicago is quite secondary enough of a market for this to be true. That would be more of a market like Birmingham or Minneapolis or something.

It's not completely true, but it's more true for Chicago than it is for NYC. It is almost completely true for places like Milwaukee, Birmingham, or Minneapolis, though.

[Julio_El_Chavo]

UVA consistently places students in top clerkships and firm jobs better than "T5" schools like NYU.

[vamedic03]

I think there's a general lesson here - outside of HYS (or possibly just YS), you don't want to be below median. It's still a rough market out there and for a lot of firms there's very little reason for them to take someone from below median when they can get an above median candidate.*

* - Note, I'm not arguing that this is the way things should be, rather that this is just how things are.

[Anonymous User]

Two things I can say with confidence:

1) There is a significant difference between NYC and at least some major markets (my experience is NYC v DC). This is an in general assessment. There is, of course, variation between firms/practice groups.
2) TLS is the only place on earth that tries to separate H from YS (in a negative way).

[Helmholtz]

UVA consistently places students in top clerkships and firm jobs better than "T5" schools like NYU.

notsureifserious.jpg

Also, NYU is not a T5 school.

[Helmholtz]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

T5 is an arbitrary cut off, seeing as CLS and NYU have almost identical employment stats.

NLJ250 C/O 2010:

Columbia - 55.2%
NYU - 43.3%

wat

[Citizen Genet]

UVA consistently places students in top clerkships and firm jobs better than "T5" schools like NYU.

notsureifserious.jpg

Also, NYU is not a T5 school.

Ooo... let me try.

W&L consistently places students in Art. III clerkships and DC government positions better than "T10" schools like Baylor.

[rayiner]

UVA consistently places students in top clerkships and firm jobs better than "T5" schools like NYU.

LOL no.

[BruceWayne]

UVA consistently places students in top clerkships and firm jobs better than "T5" schools like NYU.

LOL no.

LOL yes. In before "but US News says NYU is ranked higher" and in before " Hmmm according to my theoretical analysis the NYC market collapsed before other major markets and thus this means (insert pulled out of ass 'facts' here). "
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandr ... s-rankings
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http://lawclerkaddict.blogspot.com/
http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

[romothesavior]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

Yeah, this is not true of Chicago. Maybe a few mid-sized firms in Chicago are like this, but good luck getting one of those jobs ITE without stellar grades from a T14.

Anyways, UVA is still probably the best non-T6 school there is. And really, is it all that shocking that 1/4 of their class is unemployed? I'd imagine many will be snatched up once bar results come back.

[rayiner]

Plus, T5 is credited because there's not nearly enough Midwestern elitism on this board. I'd much rather have a sane legal job in Chicago where they actually want you to make partner, and make the same salary with a much lower cost of living, than spend a ghastly sum of money going to NYU and getting placed into one of those highly-leveraged associate mills in NYC working 80 hours a week.

LOL

Yeah, this is not true of Chicago. Maybe a few mid-sized firms in Chicago are like this, but good luck getting one of those jobs ITE without stellar grades from a T14.

Anyways, UVA is still probably the best non-T6 school there is. And really, is it all that shocking that 1/4 of their class is unemployed? I'd imagine many will be snatched up once bar results come back.

That would undoubtedly be Penn.