CLS EIP 2011 Forum

[itbdvorm]

I get what you're saying being in your shoes. I really do. Just know that from my vantagepoint I saw some of the "safe" firms you mention screw people just as badly (if not worse) and somehow avoid the PR hit by flying under the radar. Remember, just because abovethelaw didn't report it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't really think it's screwing people if it's truly a performance-based termination (which, by the way, happened even in good times). If people aren't hacking it, they get transitioned out. Not to mention under performance based-terminations, you aren't just let go immediately (as was the case with Latham) - you are given 6 months when you're still "working" at the firm to try to find another job.

Also, I have friends who worked through the recession at three of those firms, and categorically deny there was anything but normal performance-based attrition. Just because you report it doesn't mean it did happen.

Why do you assume I'm only talking about performance-based terminations? I'm not. These weren't those. These were layoffs couched as something else to effectuate the same result, a reduction in headcount.

I hear you on the last point, but that just cannot be true given the numbers and seniority levels I'm aware of. Believe me, firms took actions to reduce headcount dramatically (some just did so more publicly than others). Check NALP figures on number of associates from prior years, plus incoming associates, and do some math. Actions were taken in a number of ways that would not necessarily be clear to junior / mid-level associates.

[Anonymous User]

I get what you're saying being in your shoes. I really do. Just know that from my vantagepoint I saw some of the "safe" firms you mention screw people just as badly (if not worse) and somehow avoid the PR hit by flying under the radar. Remember, just because abovethelaw didn't report it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't really think it's screwing people if it's truly a performance-based termination (which, by the way, happened even in good times). If people aren't hacking it, they get transitioned out. Not to mention under performance based-terminations, you aren't just let go immediately (as was the case with Latham) - you are given 6 months when you're still "working" at the firm to try to find another job.

Also, I have friends who worked through the recession at three of those firms, and categorically deny there was anything but normal performance-based attrition. Just because you report it doesn't mean it did happen.

Why do you assume I'm only talking about performance-based terminations? I'm not. These weren't those. These were layoffs couched as something else to effectuate the same result, a reduction in headcount.

I hear you on the last point, but that just cannot be true given the numbers and seniority levels I'm aware of. Believe me, firms took actions to reduce headcount dramatically (some just did so more publicly than others). Check NALP figures on number of associates from prior years, plus incoming associates, and do some math. Actions were taken in a number of ways that would not necessarily be clear to junior / mid-level associates.

So which firms are you talking about? How do people generally rank job security within the V10 today, from the perspective of those of us hoping to start in late 2013? AmLaw has a lot of metrics on revenue/profit but not sure how to factor these in as a tiebreaker.

[itbdvorm]

I get what you're saying being in your shoes. I really do. Just know that from my vantagepoint I saw some of the "safe" firms you mention screw people just as badly (if not worse) and somehow avoid the PR hit by flying under the radar. Remember, just because abovethelaw didn't report it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I don't really think it's screwing people if it's truly a performance-based termination (which, by the way, happened even in good times). If people aren't hacking it, they get transitioned out. Not to mention under performance based-terminations, you aren't just let go immediately (as was the case with Latham) - you are given 6 months when you're still "working" at the firm to try to find another job.

Also, I have friends who worked through the recession at three of those firms, and categorically deny there was anything but normal performance-based attrition. Just because you report it doesn't mean it did happen.

Why do you assume I'm only talking about performance-based terminations? I'm not. These weren't those. These were layoffs couched as something else to effectuate the same result, a reduction in headcount.

I hear you on the last point, but that just cannot be true given the numbers and seniority levels I'm aware of. Believe me, firms took actions to reduce headcount dramatically (some just did so more publicly than others). Check NALP figures on number of associates from prior years, plus incoming associates, and do some math. Actions were taken in a number of ways that would not necessarily be clear to junior / mid-level associates.

So which firms are you talking about? How do people generally rank job security within the V10 today, from the perspective of those of us hoping to start in late 2013? AmLaw has a lot of metrics on revenue/profit but not sure how to factor these in as a tiebreaker.

I think you're frankly probably going to be effectively fine anywhere throughout the V10, 20, 50 right about now. Someone else keeps pointing out that Paul Weiss has 6:1 leverage in litigation, but I'm not particularly worried about them, they'll be fine.

Yes, there's probably a firm or two out there in the V50+ in worse shape than anyone realizes, but I can't imagine any of the V25 in serious rough shape. The problem of course is that it's difficult to project out 2 years (other than Wachtell, which seems to be totally fine through thick and thin). But every firm out there has drastically reduced the size of their associate classes, leverage, etc. There is one firm in the V5 I'm slightly more worried about because they seemed to be having trouble absorbing their super-class in the midst of it all (see the one firm who hired an ENORMOUS class two years ago)...but everyone else should be fine for sure

[Anonymous User]

There is one firm in the V5 I'm slightly more worried about because they seemed to be having trouble absorbing their super-class in the midst of it all (see the one firm who hired an ENORMOUS class two years ago)...but everyone else should be fine for sure

Would that be Skadden or Cravath? Do I get a prize for guessing? No worries about firms that seem to be trying to hire enormous classes for summer 2012 - or too early to tell?

[itbdvorm]

There is one firm in the V5 I'm slightly more worried about because they seemed to be having trouble absorbing their super-class in the midst of it all (see the one firm who hired an ENORMOUS class two years ago)...but everyone else should be fine for sure

Would that be Skadden or Cravath? Do I get a prize for guessing? No worries about firms that seem to be trying to hire enormous classes for summer 2012 - or too early to tell?

Hah, no prizes available to be awarded but points for investigating.

I'm sure it's too early to tell...but when you've got offers in hand not a bad question to ask ("what's your target class size vs. last year?"). Would also recommend asking first years about how busy they are - another usually good metric (though watch out for the ones selling you on working more or less than reality)

[Anonymous User]

So, question: if a firm is flying you to another city to do a callback, can you still cancel if they've made travel arrangements for you? Is it possible to keep the same flights but see another firm instead?

[Anonymous User]

So, question: if a firm is flying you to another city to do a callback, can you still cancel if they've made travel arrangements for you? Is it possible to keep the same flights but see another firm instead?

This sounds unethical... plus the second firm will probably expect to pay for your travel arrangements too, so they'll be in contact with the first firm.

[Anonymous User]

has anybody heard anything from akin? offers, cbs, dings?

[Anonymous User]

has anybody heard anything from akin? offers, cbs, dings?

nope, absolutely nothing = ="

general inactivity is freaking me out.

[Anonymous User]

know people with akin ny cbs

[Anonymous User]

So, question: if a firm is flying you to another city to do a callback, can you still cancel if they've made travel arrangements for you? Is it possible to keep the same flights but see another firm instead?

This sounds unethical... plus the second firm will probably expect to pay for your travel arrangements too, so they'll be in contact with the first firm.

No obvs not in an unethical way, but in an is this ok to ask for way.

[Anonymous User]

So, question: if a firm is flying you to another city to do a callback, can you still cancel if they've made travel arrangements for you? Is it possible to keep the same flights but see another firm instead?

This sounds unethical... plus the second firm will probably expect to pay for your travel arrangements too, so they'll be in contact with the first firm.

No obvs not in an unethical way, but in an is this ok to ask for way.

If you're not going to accept an offer from a firm, the right thing to do is always to cancel; there will be people waiting possibly for a callback or for the offer that you would have gotten, and this could save everyone a lot of trouble.

In terms of asking to keep the flights, etc., I probably wouldn't do it just because the recruiter isn't the one making the arrangements - in most cases it's a corporate travel agency. So basically what you're doing is creating a headache for the recruiter, and possibly for both recruiters at both firms. That being said, it would probably be relatively easy to get similar flights through the other firm's agency. What I would do is cancel the interview including the travel arrangements, then just make new arrangements to the best of my ability otherwise. The only instance where I wouldn't do this is where the firms are splitting the costs (i.e., they both already know you were going to interview with both firms). In that case, one firm is probably already set to bill the other, so it would be easier to just bill them for the entire cost than it would be to cancel the arrangements. Anyway, I think the answer here is just to ask what would be easiest for the recruiter and then go with that; no reason to burn bridges unless there's like one flight to where you're going and it's already full.

This all assumes that the firms are being billed directly. If you would be reimbursed, then don't change anything and just send your bills to the firm you're interviewing with.

[Anonymous User]

Still waiting to hear from Gibson, Weil, Quinn - have they sent any rejections? Just wondering if I might be in a hold group.

[Anonymous User]

Still waiting to hear from Gibson, Weil, Quinn - have they sent any rejections? Just wondering if I might be in a hold group.

I got a Gibson rejection

[Anonymous User]

Still waiting to hear from Gibson, Weil, Quinn - have they sent any rejections? Just wondering if I might be in a hold group.

I got a Gibson rejection

got one a few days after interview by mail

[Anonymous User]

NOOOOO NEWS! Going completely infrigginsane

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything from Sidley NY?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything from Sidley NY?

calls went out last week & cbs are happening this week.

for anyone who went on the cb, did they give you an approximate time frame to hear back about an offer?

[Anonymous User]

Still waiting to hear from Gibson, Weil, Quinn - have they sent any rejections? Just wondering if I might be in a hold group.

I got a Gibson rejection

got one a few days after interview by mail

Wondering if i missed a call or email either way. Is it totally inappropriate to call recruiting and check your status when you're fairly certain most others have heard from the firm?

[Anonymous User]

Any offers from this past Saturday at Cravath?

Any Cleary/DPW/Debevoise offers from this week or late last week?

[Anonymous User]

edit

[Anonymous User]

Anyone hear anything from Sidley NY?

i haven't heard from sidley, either. or a couple other big ny firms. i'm assuming (optimistically) that this means i'm on a hold list.

[Anonymous User]

Paul Hastings ding today. Check your mailboxes, kids.

[Anonymous User]

Akin rejection by e-mail.

[Anonymous User]

wilmerhale dingbat