DOJ Honors 2012 Forum

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anyone else has brought this up yet, but the application opened yesterday.

Judging from the numbers, it looks like it was over before it began. Does anyone have any insight? Is there a chance of these agencies hiring later?

[Anonymous User]

I don't think anyone else has brought this up yet, but the application opened yesterday.

Judging from the numbers, it looks like it was over before it began. Does anyone have any insight? Is there a chance of these agencies hiring later?

Elaborate? What do you mean "over before it began?"

[Anonymous User]

The numbers are so much smaller than last year, which was smaller than previous years, etc. etc. They're taking 3 people for all of the civil division? The IRS isn't having an honors program. It just looks ugly.

And for 3Ls, you're up against current clerks. Maybe the PMF program will be stronger?

[boaltrising3l]

Wow it's totally over, I'm not going to even waste time applying damn, what a shame.

[JusticeJackson]

....

[EijiMiyake]

where are the numbers posted?

Edit: Numbers posted here:
http://www.justice.gov/careers/legal/en ... pants.html

[A'nold]

Haha, oh well, at least I won't waste my time now......

[Citizen Genet]

I wonder how many applications they'll get for the 1-2 CDCA AUSA jobs

Probably not as many as you would think, but the intensity of the applications would be insane. It requires a clerkship, so that is going to act as a serious filter. Take into account many clerks already have BigLaw jobs to head back to and it will reduce the numbers pretty quick.

But then, you're dealing with people who have clerked who will naturally have incredible grades and good experience.

[gulcregret]

If you want to clerk for an immigration "judge," then I guess there's a bright spot. Overall, this is very sad because now there's going to be even greater competition at the other agencies. IRS Honors is canceled for now and I haven't seen any indication that the SEC is going to hire advanced commitment attorneys either (but they still might, I haven't checked in a few weeks).

13 Antitrust positions, though, probably 5000 applications for those spots.

[Anonymous User]

Looks like SLIP is scaled way back this year too. Bummer. I'd heard there would be cuts but I didn't think it would be this bad.

[JusticeJackson]

....

[leobowski]

How in the living hell do you select whether you want to apply for SLIP or Honors on the avue site? Is it doing honors automatically for people that have already been through the SLIP process?

[Citizen Genet]

What is the benefit of SLIP? You cannot receive an offer at the end of the summer, no matter how well you do. It seems like going to a seemingly-stable firm is a safer move.

DOJ actually has a method to transfer people from SLIP to Honors, it is just rarely, rarely used. It's called "funneling." I know it exists and that it doesn't happen often, but I'm not sure why or how it happens. I would assume it is when an office wants someone who they know would be competitive for other parts of DOJ or to jump to BigLaw, so they try to lock them in early; that is just speculation on my part though.

[gulcregret]

Friend from GWU was SLIP and then received a full-time offer for honors from his component (Civil). This was back about 4 years ago, though. This is the only instance I have heard of out of 5 others who did SLIP and did not receive offers or earn a spot in the Honors program the following year. SLIP looks really good if you want to clerk though because most judges like the public service angle and the prestige. I could see SLIP --> Clerkship --> Honors happening quite a bit.

[vanwinkle]

This is probably the most underreported news in legal hiring this year. It's not that this results in significantly fewer people getting hired by numbers--after all, even if the DOJ were hiring twice as many people, that'd only be an increase of another hundred attorneys or so--but it's symbolic of the cutbacks and the resulting trickle-down that'll happen everywhere.

What will happen to all those people with stellar resumes who, in past years, would've gotten DOJ Honors but will be displaced this year? They'll take less prestigious jobs, maybe in other federal offices, maybe in state or local offices. Aren't a number of those offices cutting back too? Yes, so you have a double squeeze there. You've got more highly qualified applicants (who are competitive enough that they would've gotten DOJ in better years) in the pool for fewer entry-level spots (due to drastic state budget cuts happening nationwide). That means people who would normally be in line for those jobs are getting displaced twice as fast as the numbers themselves suggest.

It's not, oh, the Big City DA's office is hiring 5 people instead of 10, so you're only half as likely to get hired there as you were before. It's, Big City DA is hiring 5 people instead of 10, and there are 10 people applying there who in a better economy would've done DOJ Honors instead. Since those people were competitive for DOJ Honors, a number of them will be highly competitive for Big City DA too. By the time they find work, there could be no jobs left for the people who would "traditionally" get those jobs.

Treating PI as a fallback has always been a mistake. Now it's going to be even worse than before. Now even many of those who did all the right things and worked hard to get PI jobs won't be able to find them. The pool of jobs is shrinking, and it's also filling up with better swimmers.

[Anonymous User]

This is probably the most underreported news in legal hiring this year. It's not that this results in significantly fewer people getting hired by numbers--after all, even if the DOJ were hiring twice as many people, that'd only be an increase of another hundred attorneys or so--but it's symbolic of the cutbacks and the resulting trickle-down that'll happen everywhere.

What will happen to all those people with stellar resumes who, in past years, would've gotten DOJ Honors but will be displaced this year? They'll take less prestigious jobs, maybe in other federal offices, maybe in state or local offices. Aren't a number of those offices cutting back too? Yes, so you have a double squeeze there. You've got more highly qualified applicants (who are competitive enough that they would've gotten DOJ in better years) in the pool for fewer entry-level spots (due to drastic state budget cuts happening nationwide). That means people who would normally be in line for those jobs are getting displaced twice as fast as the numbers themselves suggest.

It's not, oh, the Big City DA's office is hiring 5 people instead of 10, so you're only half as likely to get hired there as you were before. It's, Big City DA is hiring 5 people instead of 10, and there are 10 people applying there who in a better economy would've done DOJ Honors instead. Since those people were competitive for DOJ Honors, a number of them will be highly competitive for Big City DA too. By the time they find work, there could be no jobs left for the people who would "traditionally" get those jobs.

Treating PI as a fallback has always been a mistake. Now it's going to be even worse than before. Now even many of those who did all the right things and worked hard to get PI jobs won't be able to find them. The pool of jobs is shrinking, and it's also filling up with better swimmers.

Thank you for this. I'm at an agency now and would have given my left leg to at least have a chance to get into an honors program. I feel like doors are being shut on us left and right.

[Anonymous User]

This is probably the most underreported news in legal hiring this year. It's not that this results in significantly fewer people getting hired by numbers--after all, even if the DOJ were hiring twice as many people, that'd only be an increase of another hundred attorneys or so--but it's symbolic of the cutbacks and the resulting trickle-down that'll happen everywhere.

What will happen to all those people with stellar resumes who, in past years, would've gotten DOJ Honors but will be displaced this year? They'll take less prestigious jobs, maybe in other federal offices, maybe in state or local offices. Aren't a number of those offices cutting back too? Yes, so you have a double squeeze there. You've got more highly qualified applicants (who are competitive enough that they would've gotten DOJ in better years) in the pool for fewer entry-level spots (due to drastic state budget cuts happening nationwide). That means people who would normally be in line for those jobs are getting displaced twice as fast as the numbers themselves suggest.

It's not, oh, the Big City DA's office is hiring 5 people instead of 10, so you're only half as likely to get hired there as you were before. It's, Big City DA is hiring 5 people instead of 10, and there are 10 people applying there who in a better economy would've done DOJ Honors instead. Since those people were competitive for DOJ Honors, a number of them will be highly competitive for Big City DA too. By the time they find work, there could be no jobs left for the people who would "traditionally" get those jobs.

Treating PI as a fallback has always been a mistake. Now it's going to be even worse than before. Now even many of those who did all the right things and worked hard to get PI jobs won't be able to find them. The pool of jobs is shrinking, and it's also filling up with better swimmers.

I had no idea how bad this was until I interned at a federal office. As you said, it's not a matter of how much you pump your resume up with PI credentials - there are literally cuts upon cuts plus the squeeze. It's a sobering and more than midlly distressing situation.

[Anonymous User]

If you want to clerk for an immigration "judge," then I guess there's a bright spot. Overall, this is very sad because now there's going to be even greater competition at the other agencies. IRS Honors is canceled for now and I haven't seen any indication that the SEC is going to hire advanced commitment attorneys either (but they still might, I haven't checked in a few weeks).

13 Antitrust positions, though, probably 5000 applications for those spots.

Even the immigration office cut its program in half. Plus, those spots are traditionally filled by people with significant immigration experience.

Also, DOJ just announced that they're freezing applications for a bit because a couple of branches are going to have to unexpectedly cut their programs.

Not looking good.

[ShiftyPig]

Isn't the DoJ on a hiring freeze anyways?

[SweetrollStealer]

Guys remember all these government spending cuts are to help our generation so that we won't be saddled with debt in the future.

[Anonymous User]

Isn't the DoJ on a hiring freeze anyways?

Yes. A very few USAOs around the country have been granted exceptions to hire maybe one AUSA, but that's about it. I imagine the pending debt ceiling deal will make this situation worse, not better. Most of the attorneys coming on board right now are of the unpaid SAUSA variety.

[firemed]

This sort of thing can't keep going though, right?

I mean, eventually they need to hire enough attorneys to maintain a base level of efficiency.... right?

[Voltaire]

This sort of thing can't keep going though, right?

I mean, eventually they need to hire enough attorneys to maintain a base level of efficiency.... right?

Eventually the economy will get better, the Bush/Obama tax cuts will expire, and we'll be done with Iraq/Afghanistan. When those things happen, the government will be okay.

But our generation should either start voting in large numbers, or get used to getting fucked by old people. That's pretty much a fact of life for the next 40 or 50 years. Especially as medicine improves and life expectancy sky rockets.

[firemed]

This sort of thing can't keep going though, right?

I mean, eventually they need to hire enough attorneys to maintain a base level of efficiency.... right?

Eventually the economy will get better, the Bush/Obama tax cuts will expire, and we'll be done with Iraq/Afghanistan. When those things happen, the government will be okay.

But our generation should either start voting in large numbers, or get used to getting fucked by old people. That's pretty much a fact of life for the next 40 or 50 years. Especially as medicine improves and life expectancy sky rockets.

If it helps the boomers life expectancy is actually lower on average than their parents. Low 70s or so, I think.

[vanwinkle]

This sort of thing can't keep going though, right?

I mean, eventually they need to hire enough attorneys to maintain a base level of efficiency.... right?

They have plenty of attorneys, and ITE anyone with a stable government job is going to stay put. Cutting new hiring is a lot more politically and socially acceptable than laying off older employees, especially since the latter, done poorly enough, could violate the Age Discrimination in Employment Act (which is one-way and protects over-40 workers from discrimination that benefits younger workers, but not vice-versa). Plus, with a large labor pool and depressed salaries nationwide, it's easier for them to fill vacancies individually by hiring experiences attorneys rather than through large recruiting programs.

If you look at what happened in Japan after the housing bubble burst and the recession there... It took over a decade to see real recovery, and those who came of age in the worst years basically permanently lost opportunities. They're even referred to now as a "lost decade" and a "lost generation" by some analysts. I fear the same may happen here.