Employment Prospects in the T6 Forum

[WestOfTheRest]

With all the conversation about poor employment prospects and terrible market conditions, what is it like coming out of a T6, in particular CCN?

We all know that people throughout the T14 are reporting employment difficulties, but I would like to know how far this goes. Do T6 job prospects warrant large amounts of debt, or is it still only worth it if you get a substantial scholarship? If you're willing to take on debt, how much debt would you be willing to bear?

Let me know what you guys think. This dialogue has been open about TTTs for a long time, but no one has really addressed the top schools.

[ndirish2010]

With all the conversation about poor employment prospects and terrible market conditions, what is it like coming out of a T6, in particular CCN?

We all know that people throughout the T14 are reporting employment difficulties, but I would like to know how far this goes. Do T6 job prospects warrant large amounts of debt, or is it still only worth it if you get a substantial scholarship? If you're willing to take on debt, how much debt would you be willing to bear?

Let me know what you guys think. This dialogue has been open about TTTs for a long time, but no one has really addressed the top schools.

Nobody has addressed this? It is like every third thread...

[Anonymous User]

Top third at CCN are guaranteed biglaw unless they are absolutely awful at interviewing, bid dreadfully, or have a face tattoo.

Middle third at CCN have to hustle, but still should get biglaw unless they make a mistake. Obviously the necessity of not making a mistake and the possibility of not getting biglaw increase as the grades decline, especially below median. While below median at CCN is not in a great spot, proper tactics (focusing on NYC and markets with ties, interviewing well, taking relevant courses, mass mailing and targeted mailing to increase the pool of firms with your information) should probably still get a slightly below median student at CCN a biglaw job.

Bottom third are in trouble but can still get biglaw if they have significant work experience and do their diligent job search. Bottom third straight from UG are fucked. Very bottom 10% are probably fucked regardless of past work experience.

About 70% of CC and about 65% of N (due to more PI people) will get biglaw, assuming that includes people who get boutiques that pay market/close to market and people who do SAs but go on to DOJ or clerk or whatever.

[WestOfTheRest]

With all the conversation about poor employment prospects and terrible market conditions, what is it like coming out of a T6, in particular CCN?

We all know that people throughout the T14 are reporting employment difficulties, but I would like to know how far this goes. Do T6 job prospects warrant large amounts of debt, or is it still only worth it if you get a substantial scholarship? If you're willing to take on debt, how much debt would you be willing to bear?

Let me know what you guys think. This dialogue has been open about TTTs for a long time, but no one has really addressed the top schools.

Nobody has addressed this? It is like every third thread...

Meh, couldn't find it in three threads today. I get a pass because I've been here so long and I was lazy.

[WestOfTheRest]

Top third at CCN are guaranteed biglaw unless they are absolutely awful at interviewing, bid dreadfully, or have a face tattoo.

Middle third at CCN have to hustle, but still should get biglaw unless they make a mistake. Obviously the necessity of not making a mistake and the possibility of not getting biglaw increase as the grades decline, especially below median. While below median at CCN is not in a great spot, proper tactics (focusing on NYC and markets with ties, interviewing well, taking relevant courses, mass mailing and targeted mailing to increase the pool of firms with your information) should probably still get a slightly below median student at CCN a biglaw job.

Bottom third are in trouble but can still get biglaw if they have significant work experience and do their diligent job search. Bottom third straight from UG are fucked. Very bottom 10% are probably fucked regardless of past work experience.

So the prospects are still decent? Obviously not guaranteed, but everyone knows this.

How much debt is too much debt for a school in the CCN range?

[Anonymous User]

Top third at CCN are guaranteed biglaw unless they are absolutely awful at interviewing, bid dreadfully, or have a face tattoo.

Middle third at CCN have to hustle, but still should get biglaw unless they make a mistake. Obviously the necessity of not making a mistake and the possibility of not getting biglaw increase as the grades decline, especially below median. While below median at CCN is not in a great spot, proper tactics (focusing on NYC and markets with ties, interviewing well, taking relevant courses, mass mailing and targeted mailing to increase the pool of firms with your information) should probably still get a slightly below median student at CCN a biglaw job.

Bottom third are in trouble but can still get biglaw if they have significant work experience and do their diligent job search. Bottom third straight from UG are fucked. Very bottom 10% are probably fucked regardless of past work experience.

So the prospects are still decent? Obviously not guaranteed, but everyone knows this.

How much debt is too much debt for a school in the CCN range?

I would do CCN at sticker unless offered a fair amount of money at MVP or a lot of money at DCNG or B.

[Rock-N-Roll]

Nobody has addressed this? It is like every third thread...

This!

Congrats on all of your acceptances, but CastleRock, how can you have posted 4000 times on this site and not have the tools/information to answer your own question? Very few people actually know exactly how well CCN placed last year. 70% at Columbia and NYU OCI has been bandied about this site, but of course I can in now way vouch for the accuracy of that figure personally.

Furthermore, because no law school is able to guarantee a biglaw job to every student who wants one, assessing the balance of scholarship vs. a schools job prospects (i.e risk) vs. one's own overall desire to become an attorney is what we all weigh for every school that we are accepted to. And I think that type of assessment has to be done individually and is not something that someone else can just give over to you in a post.

[WestOfTheRest]

Nobody has addressed this? It is like every third thread...

This!

Congrats on all of your acceptances, but CastleRock, how can you have posted 4000 times on this site and not have the tools/information to answer your own question? Very few people actually know exactly how well CCN placed last year. 70% at Columbia and NYU OCI has been bandied about this site, but of course I can in now way vouch for the accuracy of that figure personally.

Furthermore, because no law school is able to guarantee a biglaw job to every student who wants one, assessing the balance of scholarship vs. a schools job prospects (i.e risk) vs. one's own overall desire to become an attorney is what we all weigh for every school that we are accepted to. And I think that type of assessment has to be done individually and is not something that someone else can just give over to you in a post.

(a) You don't need to be a dick and lecture me, and (b) I realize that these are personal choices.

The fact is, I wanted a thread about this particular topic that takes into account today's pressures. I didn't find one and so I started my own. I can easily search and find answers to questions, but I wanted to open a dialogue about it and see what people have to say right now. Obviously I have 4000 posts and I know how the search function works, in this case it didn't serve the purpose I wanted served, so I did something else. Relax.

So if you would like to give your own opinion, please do so. I'm not looking for a fluffy, it's everyone's individiual choice, you special snowflake! I want to know what your opinion is.

[TaipeiMort]

Chicago is getting around 80% into NLJ250/Clerking (and eventual Biglaw). I don't know where the rest go, but I would estimate that another 5% go corporate/business/consulting/Ibanking, and 15% go PI/government/academia/PhD or other joint degree/Small Law (Daddy's firm). This is because of the small class size and the hugely regionally diverse class.

Columbia is close to Chicago's numbers, I'd bet a few more are in trouble b/c of the larger class size, which makes it harder to get jobs (see Cornell's vs. Georgetown's placement last year in the NLJ250).

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

[WestOfTheRest]

Chicago is getting around 80% into NLJ250/Clerking (and eventual Biglaw). I don't know where the rest go, but I would estimate that another 5% go corporate/business/consulting/Ibanking, and 15% go PI/government/academia/PhD or other joint degree/Small Law (Daddy's firm). This is because of the small class size and the hugely regionally diverse class.

Columbia is close to Chicago's numbers, I'd bet a few more are in trouble b/c of the larger class size, which makes it harder to get jobs (see Cornell's vs. Georgetown's placement last year in the NLJ250).

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

I'm suprised by Chicago's numbers. Is that at OCI?

CLS said that roughly 91% of students partake in OCI and around 73% land a job (If I remember correctly). I'm curious how the other approximately 34% fair in getting a job.

[azntwice]

Student at CLS. Here is what I have gathered.

1) Biglaw placement at CLS last year: ~85% students participated in EIP, 78% of them got offers. That evens out to about 68% biglaw placement total. These are numbers from CLS OCS by the way. I think I have seen the math done on this site somewhere that this probably means about 50% of kids below median get offers, and 50% don't, or: of the ~340 kids trying to get biglaw, only 75 of them do not get an offer at EIP - fairly good odds. Many of them will probably get another job at some other firm.

2) EIP placement at HLS was worse than CLS placement last year (I think I remember something like... 300-something out of 600 got jobs). This may explain why HLS has moved their EIP up significantly.

[Rock-N-Roll]

Nobody has addressed this? It is like every third thread...

This!

Congrats on all of your acceptances, but CastleRock, how can you have posted 4000 times on this site and not have the tools/information to answer your own question? Very few people actually know exactly how well CCN placed last year. 70% at Columbia and NYU OCI has been bandied about this site, but of course I can in now way vouch for the accuracy of that figure personally.

Furthermore, because no law school is able to guarantee a biglaw job to every student who wants one, assessing the balance of scholarship vs. a schools job prospects (i.e risk) vs. one's own overall desire to become an attorney is what we all weigh for every school that we are accepted to. And I think that type of assessment has to be done individually and is not something that someone else can just give over to you in a post.

(a) You don't need to be a dick and lecture me, and (b) I realize that these are personal choices.

The fact is, I wanted a thread about this particular topic that takes into account today's pressures. I didn't find one and so I started my own. I can easily search and find answers to questions, but I wanted to open a dialogue about it and see what people have to say right now. Obviously I have 4000 posts and I know how the search function works, in this case it didn't serve the purpose I wanted served, so I did something else. Relax.

So if you would like to give your own opinion, please do so. I'm not looking for a fluffy, it's everyone's individiual choice, you special snowflake! I want to know what your opinion is.

I'm not trying to be rude to you CastleRock. I'm a curmudgeon on threads like this because I'm just unhappy with the whole shebang that is the law school process, and I don't believe law schools are playing fair with us incoming students. And although I realize it is extremely cynical, it is my feeling that discussions like you're trying to generate end up being futile exercises, because none of us are really in a position given the information we have to make true value assessments regarding how much a particular school is worth. It just ends up being posts of people's personal opinions and biases regarding different schools without much real/verified data or analysis.

My own two cents on this whole topic is that at the end of the day, if someone wants to be a lawyer, they go to law school, and because doing well in law school is so vital they should go to a school that they believe provides them the best opportunity to do so. If that school also gives them a scholarship on top of that, then all the better!

[azntwice]

Sorry, just wanted to correct myself - HLS placement was worse than CLS placement in 2009. 58% vs. 67.5%, respectively.

[timbs4339]

I am a CLS 3L who did not get a biglaw job from EIP. I'm working in state gov this summer. I was slightly below median with no work experience. Struck out in a home market with ties and had a few NYC callbacks that didn't pan out.

Would be happy to take your questions.

[timbs4339]

Sorry, just wanted to correct myself - HLS placement was worse than CLS placement in 2009. 58% vs. 67.5%, respectively.

I thought this stat included 3Ls participating in EIP?

[WestOfTheRest]

I am a CLS 3L who did not get a biglaw job from EIP. I'm working in state gov this summer. I was slightly below median with no work experience. Struck out in a home market with ties and had a few NYC callbacks that didn't pan out.

Would be happy to take your questions.

Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of infromation I wanted to get in the open.

I guess first of all, are you regretting your decision to attend at all?

[Anonymous User]

How would this same top 1/3, middle 1/3, bottom 1/3 analysis fit in regards to MVP?

[azntwice]

Hm, not sure if it includes 3Ls - I took the # of kids with offers / # of total participants for both schools, so overall it seems CLS still did better.

[timbs4339]

I am a CLS 3L who did not get a biglaw job from EIP. I'm working in state gov this summer. I was slightly below median with no work experience. Struck out in a home market with ties and had a few NYC callbacks that didn't pan out.

Would be happy to take your questions.

Thanks guys, this is exactly the kind of infromation I wanted to get in the open.

I guess first of all, are you regretting your decision to attend at all?

This is something I have been thinking a lot about since it's come up at work. A lot of my coworkers really regret going to law school. My anger (better termed rage since I can't do anything about it) at the law school system and the school administration sometimes makes me think I should have dropped out or not gone at all.

Whether I could have done more research and avoided my fate is another matter. I definitely made a ton of mistakes. I am still wrapped up in them, I post a lot on this forum to let others know what to avoid doing. I knew from the first few weeks of class my grades probably weren't going to be great, but assumed I could get a job in my secondary home market just by showing I wanted to work there (which I legitimately did). I actually didn't get a single callback interview out of about 15 firms in that market. I didn't talk to any rising 3Ls about the bidding process or EIP, didn't come here and look for advice. Of course, hindsight is 20/20.

But looking back I think I made the right decision to go and just happened to get screwed. It happens to some people, that's just life. I graduated from a mediocre state school with no job prospects and a liberal arts degree. I don't have parents who can financially support me if I am not working. I received a large scholarship to go to CLS. If I'd been a graduate of an Ivy and had the opportunity to do something interesting or profitable with my undergraduate degree (like work in finance, consulting, or politics or something) I would have tried that and deferred. But I still think I'll end up with a better job and career 10, 20 years from now as a lawyer. But I have no plan for the next year, two years, five years, and a ton of debt, and that's a very scary situation.

[Anonymous User]

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

The PI thing really isn't just an excuse. I'm at NYU, firm-oriented, and have a ton of friends who have no interest in doing EIW or going on to firms. I've seen the events this past spring for people not interested in firms. They attract like 100 people, or between 20-25% of the class. Now, not all of those people stay true to their PI-only focus (although at this point they've missed the EIW boat if they do change their minds), and some maybe wouldn't have gotten biglaw anyway (bad grades, straight from UG), but the prevalence of PI-focused people at NYU is not to be understated, and I think people who don't go to NYU simply don't understand how common it is here. It's vastly different from the maybe 15-max CLS students only interested in PI, or maybe 5 at the much smaller Chi.

[timbs4339]

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

The PI thing really isn't just an excuse. I'm at NYU, firm-oriented, and have a ton of friends who have no interest in doing EIW or going on to firms. I've seen the events this past spring for people not interested in firms. They attract like 100 people, or between 20-25% of the class. Now, not all of those people stay true to their PI-only focus (although at this point they've missed the EIW boat if they do change their minds), and some maybe wouldn't have gotten biglaw anyway (bad grades, straight from UG), but the prevalence of PI-focused people at NYU is not to be understated, and I think people who don't go to NYU simply don't understand how common it is here. It's vastly different from the maybe 15-max CLS students only interested in PI, or maybe 5 at the much smaller Chi.

I hope you mean 15% of students at CLS.

[Anonymous User]

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

The PI thing really isn't just an excuse. I'm at NYU, firm-oriented, and have a ton of friends who have no interest in doing EIW or going on to firms. I've seen the events this past spring for people not interested in firms. They attract like 100 people, or between 20-25% of the class. Now, not all of those people stay true to their PI-only focus (although at this point they've missed the EIW boat if they do change their minds), and some maybe wouldn't have gotten biglaw anyway (bad grades, straight from UG), but the prevalence of PI-focused people at NYU is not to be understated, and I think people who don't go to NYU simply don't understand how common it is here. It's vastly different from the maybe 15-max CLS students only interested in PI, or maybe 5 at the much smaller Chi.

I hope you mean 15% of students at CLS.

No, I mean 15. Plenty more people at CLS will end up in PI, but that wasn't their only/primary goal. People opt out of OCI due to crappy grades more frequently than lack of interest in firms (however stupid that may be as a strategy).

[timbs4339]

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

The PI thing really isn't just an excuse. I'm at NYU, firm-oriented, and have a ton of friends who have no interest in doing EIW or going on to firms. I've seen the events this past spring for people not interested in firms. They attract like 100 people, or between 20-25% of the class. Now, not all of those people stay true to their PI-only focus (although at this point they've missed the EIW boat if they do change their minds), and some maybe wouldn't have gotten biglaw anyway (bad grades, straight from UG), but the prevalence of PI-focused people at NYU is not to be understated, and I think people who don't go to NYU simply don't understand how common it is here. It's vastly different from the maybe 15-max CLS students only interested in PI, or maybe 5 at the much smaller Chi.

I hope you mean 15% of students at CLS.

No, I mean 15. Plenty more people at CLS will end up in PI, but that wasn't their only/primary goal.

I'm sorry, but this is just wrong. I know more than 15 people in my class who were PI focused from the start and I am acquainted with maybe 75 people in my class.

[Anonymous User]

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

The PI thing really isn't just an excuse. I'm at NYU, firm-oriented, and have a ton of friends who have no interest in doing EIW or going on to firms. I've seen the events this past spring for people not interested in firms. They attract like 100 people, or between 20-25% of the class. Now, not all of those people stay true to their PI-only focus (although at this point they've missed the EIW boat if they do change their minds), and some maybe wouldn't have gotten biglaw anyway (bad grades, straight from UG), but the prevalence of PI-focused people at NYU is not to be understated, and I think people who don't go to NYU simply don't understand how common it is here. It's vastly different from the maybe 15-max CLS students only interested in PI, or maybe 5 at the much smaller Chi.

Yes, also at NYU, also will agree with this. I think it may be true true that CC > N for law firm placement nationwide, but I think the difference is small overall and nonexistent in NYC. The PI distinction between NYU and CLS may be overblown (15 students out of ~400 sounds too low) but almost certainly exists, and the PI gulf between NYU and Chicago is a yawning chasm. I would also guess that NYU students get more encouragement to pursue PI than CLS students. See, for instance, CLS's cutting back its summer funding this year. You're telling me Columbia University can't afford to pay its students 10 weeks of funding instead of 8? No way. It's just a matter of institutional priorities, and the message seems clear, from the outside at least, that PI is second fiddle at CLS. (Edit: point being, I wouldn't be surprised if when push comes to shove, more people tend to opt out of applying to firms at NYU due to feeling like they have other legitimate options.)

In any event, the percentage of EIW participants who got offers sounds almost identical to the CLS number cited in this thread.

[Anonymous User]

NYU is strong in New York, but really shouldn't be in the "T6 category" outside of New York. I don't think their lower numbers relative to Columbia and Chicago are just because of PI, I have a baseless hunch it is also because they aren't a national school in the sense of HYSCC-- if you are below median you will have huge difficulty getting CA, Chicago, etc.

Numbers on Chicago being better in CA?

Its obviously harder to get a job in Chicago if you went to NYU instead of Chicago. How on earth do you answer the question: "Given Chicago has the same GPA standards and lower LSAT standards, why did you decided to attend school in New York instead of Chicago?"

Our EIW #s seem to be the same as Columbia's.