How to be a Prosecution/PD Gunner? Forum

[A'nold]

I wouldn't think that interning with a PD or DA would provide much in the way of public speaking experience. They let you speak in front of a judge/jury? The interns that I've seen just seem to observe and help with research.

If you want to demonstrate public speaking ability, maybe join toastmasters or something?

I know some CA offices let you try your own cases if you are certified. But since akili is a 1L, it's doubtful that s/he falls within this category. But again, it's widely different between offices.

The MI student practice rules allow 1Ls in PD offices (and I believe DA offices) to speak in court. Last summer I appeared under supervision on behalf of clients for arraignments, prelim exam pleas, sentencings, probation violation hearings etc ... So check around. If you really want public speaking experience there are some places where you'll be able to get it summer after 1L.

Hmm, this is good to know. I'm def gunning hard for a DA's office next summer, but I think most of those doors have closed for this summer. The judge and PD are in Washington (state) and I'm not sure what the student practice rules are there. I'll definitely check in to it. The judge is trial level, criminal court. I have a tentative offer but they want to talk to me, so I'll use that opportunity to see exactly what the clerkship would involve.

I was thinking that the judge would just be a more broad experience that wouldn't shut any doors. I'm pretty sure I don't want to do PD's office and don't want to get pigeon-holed anywhere.

Are you from WA or going to a WA school? I have found it pretty dang easy to land internships in this state. Are you saying you're too late at this point? Are you only interested in King County or Pierce County or are you open to other counties?

[los blancos]

Am I correct in that Trial judge >>> Public Defender?

(if I want to be a DA)

That can depend. Interning with a trial judge means you've seen a lot of the day-to-day stuff, and it doesn't have the downside of demonstrating interest in "the other side." But it demonstrates absolutely no public speaking ability, and that's a big hit IMO.

I wouldn't think that interning with a PD or DA would provide much in the way of public speaking experience. They let you speak in front of a judge/jury? The interns that I've seen just seem to observe and help with research.

Seems like it depends on the office, but I've basically been trying cases and arguing motions all semester.

[bilbobaggins]

Am I correct in that Trial judge >>> Public Defender?

(if I want to be a DA)

That can depend. Interning with a trial judge means you've seen a lot of the day-to-day stuff, and it doesn't have the downside of demonstrating interest in "the other side." But it demonstrates absolutely no public speaking ability, and that's a big hit IMO.

I wouldn't think that interning with a PD or DA would provide much in the way of public speaking experience. They let you speak in front of a judge/jury? The interns that I've seen just seem to observe and help with research.

If you want to demonstrate public speaking ability, maybe join toastmasters or something?

Oh, I didn't realize he was talking about his 1L summer. But if you aren't representing clients in court ever during a 2L or 3L PD/DA externship/summer internship, you're doing it wrong.

Most offices in CA give you some opportunity to argue motions, but if you're doing felony work in SF you're not going to be speaking in court. There's not much of a problem with this. It was clear that many of the attorneys they bring in for the VAP program (where you get a misdo caseload) had limited if any experience in court and they spend a lot of time training them on that stuff.

There's a fair amount of difference of opinion about whether or not you're getting better experience with misdo attorneys (who are doing the job you're trying to get and go to trial much more often) or with felony attorneys who are more experienced and get more in-depth with legal issues. What I've found to be most persuasive with interviewers is the variety of my experience coupled with having second chaired a major felony trial and a more serious misdo trial. The fact that I won a motion to suppress by arguing in court doesn't seem as important to interviewers than the other work I've done, but this is just my impression. I've yet to be asked about my grades or for a transcript by anyone.

[A'nold]

BTW- in WA we have a program called Rule 9 where after you are 2/3 done you can basically do everything an attorney does. Right now I've been given my own caseload, for example (arraignments, reviews, etc). Actually, at the office I'm currently interning, the interns do all the lower level stuff.

Edit: I haven't posted in this thread for awhile but I just have to say that waiting out offices that you've interned for is a lot more stressful than I had imagined. I don't really see why they can't extend offers to good workers with great creds in the Spring before the intern takes the bar. After taking the bar, the intern can keep working for free or a low wage and then, if he/she passes the bar, hire the person. I can now see why so many DA/PD gunners jump ship prematurely, cracking under the pressure of going into bar season without an offer. It's the nature of the beast I guess.

[Tanicius]

BTW- in WA we have a program called Rule 9 where after you are 2/3 done you can basically do everything an attorney does. Right now I've been given my own caseload, for example (arraignments, reviews, etc). Actually, at the office I'm currently interning, the interns do all the lower level stuff.

Edit: I haven't posted in this thread for awhile but I just have to say that waiting out offices that you've interned for is a lot more stressful than I had imagined. I don't really see why they can't extend offers to good workers with great creds in the Spring before the intern takes the bar. After taking the bar, the intern can keep working for free or a low wage and then, if he/she passes the bar, hire the person. I can now see why so many DA/PD gunners jump ship prematurely, cracking under the pressure of going into bar season without an offer. It's the nature of the beast I guess.

I'm just a 1L, two and a half years out from this nightmare of a situation, and I'm still wondering how much longer it'll take before I crack. It seems so ridiculously risky to go all-in for this career.

[target]

BTW- in WA we have a program called Rule 9 where after you are 2/3 done you can basically do everything an attorney does. Right now I've been given my own caseload, for example (arraignments, reviews, etc). Actually, at the office I'm currently interning, the interns do all the lower level stuff.

Edit: I haven't posted in this thread for awhile but I just have to say that waiting out offices that you've interned for is a lot more stressful than I had imagined. I don't really see why they can't extend offers to good workers with great creds in the Spring before the intern takes the bar. After taking the bar, the intern can keep working for free or a low wage and then, if he/she passes the bar, hire the person. I can now see why so many DA/PD gunners jump ship prematurely, cracking under the pressure of going into bar season without an offer. It's the nature of the beast I guess.

I'm just a 1L, two and a half years out from this nightmare of a situation, and I'm still wondering how much longer it'll take before I crack. It seems so ridiculously risky to go all-in for this career.

+1000000000000000000000

May the odds be ever in our favor

[Always Credited]

BTW- in WA we have a program called Rule 9 where after you are 2/3 done you can basically do everything an attorney does. Right now I've been given my own caseload, for example (arraignments, reviews, etc). Actually, at the office I'm currently interning, the interns do all the lower level stuff.

Edit: I haven't posted in this thread for awhile but I just have to say that waiting out offices that you've interned for is a lot more stressful than I had imagined. I don't really see why they can't extend offers to good workers with great creds in the Spring before the intern takes the bar. After taking the bar, the intern can keep working for free or a low wage and then, if he/she passes the bar, hire the person. I can now see why so many DA/PD gunners jump ship prematurely, cracking under the pressure of going into bar season without an offer. It's the nature of the beast I guess.

I'll never understand why these offices never seem to have intelligent hiring systems. Its as though they really WANT the bottom of the barrel, and do everything they can to make sure that all the top students who could possibly want to work for their office run screaming in the other direction.

[Jeremyl]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

[Always Credited]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

[Veyron]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

Ideally you would secure a job in private criminal defense before graduation so it can't be said to be a backup any more than DA/PD would be a backup for not getting private. Besides, private defense firms might look askance at you if you had a resume that indicated a prosecutorial bent. Its believed by some lawyers in the defense field that its difficult to change the "mindset" of someone who is predisposed towards prosecution to show the proper aggression in defense.

[Rocky Estoppel]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

Ideally you would secure a job in private criminal defense before graduation so it can't be said to be a backup any more than DA/PD would be a backup for not getting private. Besides, private defense firms might look askance at you if you had a resume that indicated a prosecutorial bent. Its believed by some lawyers in the defense field that its difficult to change the "mindset" of someone who is predisposed towards prosecution to show the proper aggression in defense.

I think this is true with the Public Defender's Offices but not usually in private defense firms. Usually, private criminal defense firms will be small and often times they are former prosecutors.

[Veyron]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

Ideally you would secure a job in private criminal defense before graduation so it can't be said to be a backup any more than DA/PD would be a backup for not getting private. Besides, private defense firms might look askance at you if you had a resume that indicated a prosecutorial bent. Its believed by some lawyers in the defense field that its difficult to change the "mindset" of someone who is predisposed towards prosecution to show the proper aggression in defense.

I think this is true with the Public Defender's Offices but not usually in private defense firms. Usually, private criminal defense firms will be small and often times they are former prosecutors.

Often times they are started by former prosecutors but firms that aren't sometimes have a bias about hiring them - least from what I've seen. Maybe its just the ones that were started by PDs.

[bilbobaggins]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

Ideally you would secure a job in private criminal defense before graduation so it can't be said to be a backup any more than DA/PD would be a backup for not getting private. Besides, private defense firms might look askance at you if you had a resume that indicated a prosecutorial bent. Its believed by some lawyers in the defense field that its difficult to change the "mindset" of someone who is predisposed towards prosecution to show the proper aggression in defense.

Many of those who want to be DAs or PDs are doing so because of the public service aspect. This wouldn't work for many of us.

[Veyron]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

Ideally you would secure a job in private criminal defense before graduation so it can't be said to be a backup any more than DA/PD would be a backup for not getting private. Besides, private defense firms might look askance at you if you had a resume that indicated a prosecutorial bent. Its believed by some lawyers in the defense field that its difficult to change the "mindset" of someone who is predisposed towards prosecution to show the proper aggression in defense.

Many of those who want to be DAs or PDs are doing so because of the public service aspect. This wouldn't work for many of us.

Yah, you want to be a PD so you can be overworked and underfunded enough to ensure you can't do anything but a crap job, I get it. My point is that I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. Private practice is my first choice, DA/PD is my backup if my offers fall through. From my perspective, its pretty silly to call kids gunning for PD/DA to call private practice a backup, especially since its so much harder to get a job in the private sector if you graduate unemployed. Even moreso if you've been networking and laying the groundwork for a career in public service instead of in the private sector.

[Borhas]

You don't get it bro

[leobowski]

Yah, you want to be a PD so you can be overworked and underfunded enough to ensure you can't do anything but a crap job, I get it. My point is that I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. Private practice is my first choice, DA/PD is my backup if my offers fall through. From my perspective, its pretty silly to call kids gunning for PD/DA to call private practice a backup, especially since its so much harder to get a job in the private sector if you graduate unemployed. Even moreso if you've been networking and laying the groundwork for a career in public service instead of in the private sector.

Get the fuck out of here

[seancris]

If you don't land a da/pd job, what are some realistic backups with a crim law heavy resume? I assume crim defense is the obvious answer, but what about something else? Would any civil firm even look at you? What about AG office or other government positions?

Those are essentially the backups. But as A'nold pointed out above, because DA/PD offers have been going out so outrageously late, you usually won't know that you've failed to get the job until its too late to get any other job.

Ideally you would secure a job in private criminal defense before graduation so it can't be said to be a backup any more than DA/PD would be a backup for not getting private. Besides, private defense firms might look askance at you if you had a resume that indicated a prosecutorial bent. Its believed by some lawyers in the defense field that its difficult to change the "mindset" of someone who is predisposed towards prosecution to show the proper aggression in defense.

I'm a 0L so I hope it's cool to just post questions/follow-ups so I can develop a better grasp of the DA/PD market. I don't have any practical insight to add yet.

But it seems to me that private defense firms expect some PD/DA work before hiring. Is that the case? Is it practical to line up a job with a small firm with no real WE aside from internships? Seems that PD/DA is the default option for someone interested in criminal just because that's where the entry level jobs are.

[target]

But it seems to me that private defense firms expect some PD/DA work before hiring. Is that the case? I

Many PD/ADA lateral to private defense/litigation firms after two or three years. This does not mean that you have to work in a PD/DA office before working for a private defense/litigation firms.

Is it practical to line up a job with a small firm with no real WE aside from internships? Seems that PD/DA is the default option for someone interested in criminal just because that's where the entry level jobs are.

Internship as in DA/PD internship? OR normal law firm internship?
As long as you get all the checkmarks (i.e. grades, LR, etc), you can get a job with a law firm.

[Always Credited]

You don't get it bro

[target]

Yah, you want to be a PD so you can be overworked and underfunded enough to ensure you can't do anything but a crap job, I get it. My point is that I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. Private practice is my first choice, DA/PD is my backup if my offers fall through. From my perspective, its pretty silly to call kids gunning for PD/DA to call private practice a backup, especially since its so much harder to get a job in the private sector if you graduate unemployed. Even moreso if you've been networking and laying the groundwork for a career in public service instead of in the private sector.

The bold part may be true pre-ITE. Nowadays, you need crim-related classes on your transcript to show a genuine interest in working at a DA/PD office, in addition to grades.

[bilbobaggins]

Yah, you want to be a PD so you can be overworked and underfunded enough to ensure you can't do anything but a crap job, I get it. My point is that I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. Private practice is my first choice, DA/PD is my backup if my offers fall through. From my perspective, its pretty silly to call kids gunning for PD/DA to call private practice a backup, especially since its so much harder to get a job in the private sector if you graduate unemployed. Even moreso if you've been networking and laying the groundwork for a career in public service instead of in the private sector.

Well, as someone who has had private sector offers I haven't found this to even be the case. In CA the PD market compensates well and is extremely competitive.

[seatown12]

Yah, you want to be a PD so you can be overworked and underfunded enough to ensure you can't do anything but a crap job, I get it. My point is that I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. Private practice is my first choice, DA/PD is my backup if my offers fall through. From my perspective, its pretty silly to call kids gunning for PD/DA to call private practice a backup, especially since its so much harder to get a job in the private sector if you graduate unemployed. Even moreso if you've been networking and laying the groundwork for a career in public service instead of in the private sector.

I'm guessing you have no experience with the criminal justice system whatsoever and have no idea what you're talking about, but in my experience public defenders often care more and do a better job than all but the elite private defense attorneys. Private attorneys, who are often former prosecutors, are running a business; as such, they only represent those who pay the fee, and often only to the extent necessary to ensure receipt of that fee. They also have to invest significant time and effort into business generation, so while their caseload might be smaller than that of a PD they are not devoting themselves 100% to working on those cases.

I can't wait for you to be that guy who applies to DA/PD jobs as a "backup" and gets his resume tossed on the scrap heap with the 500 other people who had the same misconception.


TL;DR

Get the fuck out of here

[los blancos]

in my experience public defenders often care more and do a better job than all but the elite private defense attorneys.

I wouldn't word it that strongly, but this has been my experience as well, in more than one jurisdiction.

[Cinderella]

Yah, you want to be a PD so you can be overworked and underfunded enough to ensure you can't do anything but a crap job, I get it. My point is that I'm coming at this from the opposite angle. Private practice is my first choice, DA/PD is my backup if my offers fall through. From my perspective, its pretty silly to call kids gunning for PD/DA to call private practice a backup, especially since its so much harder to get a job in the private sector if you graduate unemployed. Even moreso if you've been networking and laying the groundwork for a career in public service instead of in the private sector.

I'm guessing you have no experience with the criminal justice system whatsoever and have no idea what you're talking about, but in my experience public defenders often care more and do a better job than all but the elite private defense attorneys. Private attorneys, who are often former prosecutors, are running a business; as such, they only represent those who pay the fee, and often only to the extent necessary to ensure receipt of that fee. They also have to invest significant time and effort into business generation, so while their caseload might be smaller than that of a PD they are not devoting themselves 100% to working on those cases.

I can't wait for you to be that guy who applies to DA/PD jobs as a "backup" and gets his resume tossed on the scrap heap with the 500 other people who had the same misconception.


TL;DR

Get the fuck out of here

This is dead on, in my experience. I've seen several trials get completely blown due to a private attorney's incompetence.

[akili]

Are you from WA or going to a WA school? I have found it pretty dang easy to land internships in this state. Are you saying you're too late at this point? Are you only interested in King County or Pierce County or are you open to other counties?

I went to WA school for undergrad but I'm not from there and not going to law school there. As far as I could tell I am too late for King/Pierce and Spokane counties with the DAs. I've got a couple options from judges up there so I'll probably end up taking one of those.