Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse Forum

[donzoli]

Law grad refused bar admission for debt:

http://www.nationaljurist.com/content/b ... ssion-debt

[A'nold]

This is so freaking messed up. I'll be screwed if this becomes the new "thang."

[Anonymous Loser]

This guys isn't being denied admission because he has debt. He is being denied admission because he has handled his debt obligations poorly.

He made no payments on student loans and failed to pay his credit cards.

Loveland said a major problem was that Griffin had said he was going to file for bankruptcy to get time to pass the bar and find full-time work. But he never filed the bankruptcy petition as promised.

[donzoli]

“No one is turned down for debt alone. The issue was that he did not have a plan to pay it off.”

I'd bet his plan was to work as an attorney to make some cash to pay it off. NOW he absolutely has no plan.

[thecilent]

This is so freaking messed up. I'll be screwed if this becomes the new "thang."

Did you even read the article?

[kswiss]

Yeah, it looks like he was in default on his student loans and several credit cards at the time he was applying. I could see how that would be possible after failing the bar, but if you can't pay there are avenues to take to mitigate the harm. The article mentions that he was supposed to file for bankruptcy and never did. I don't think it was the fact that he was in debt as much as the fact that was not doing a thing about it, even while employed.

My wife has gradplus loans, and it is so easy to get a forbearance that there is no reason to be in default unless you are lazy. It might be a different matter if he has private loans...

[Anonymous Loser]

“Folks with huge debt get approved every day by the association,” Loveland said. “No one is turned down for debt alone. The issue was that he did not have a plan to pay it off.”

[A'nold]

This is so freaking messed up. I'll be screwed if this becomes the new "thang."

Did you even read the article?

Uh, yeah, did you use any of your reasoning skills while reading the article?

Just b/c dude has 16,500 or whatever in student loan debt and he isn't paying it doesn't make him a bad person or mean he has a character flaw. That much credit card debt is definitely not uncommon in this country AND 170k is not an astronomical amount for UG and law school debt combined.

He's working part-time at $12 an hour in a legal position. What the hell else does the bar expect him to do? I'm sure he, you know, has to LIVE? His "plan" was to become an attorney and hopefully pay off his debt through working in a job that he just spent 3 years slaving away to earn.......give me a break people.

[A'nold]

Yeah, it looks like he was in default on his student loans and several credit cards at the time he was applying. I could see how that would be possible after failing the bar, but if you can't pay there are avenues to take to mitigate the harm. The article mentions that he was supposed to file for bankruptcy and never did. I don't think it was the fact that he was in debt as much as the fact that was not doing a thing about it, even while employed.

My wife has gradplus loans, and it is so easy to get a forbearance that there is no reason to be in default unless you are lazy. It might be a different matter if he has private loans...

There are limits to the amount of times you can ask for a forbearance...maybe he already used up all of them for his UG debt? Anyway, the fact that he had a job making $12 an hour trying to make something of himself with his LAW degree shows that he was giving effort to get a better job and maybe be able to move out of his mother's basement while taking the bus to work off of his 1k a month or whatever earnings.

[donzoli]

Griffin’s situation resembles that of a New York State law grad, denied admission to the bar in 2009 because of $400,000 in student debt.

[too old for this sh*]

This is so freaking messed up. I'll be screwed if this becomes the new "thang."

Did you even read the article?

Uh, yeah, did you use any of your reasoning skills while reading the article?

Just b/c dude has 16,500 or whatever in student loan debt and he isn't paying it doesn't make him a bad person or mean he has a character flaw. That much credit card debt is definitely not uncommon in this country AND 170k is not an astronomical amount for UG and law school debt combined.

He's working part-time at $12 an hour in a legal position. What the hell else does the bar expect him to do? I'm sure he, you know, has to LIVE? His "plan" was to become an attorney and hopefully pay off his debt through working in a job that he just spent 3 years slaving away to earn.......give me a break people.

he also claimed he was going to wash it away via he filing of BK...and then he never filed. In other words, he basically walked the debt. And THAT is a no-no when applying for the Bar in probably every one of the State Bar Associations around the country.

Court filings say that Griffin, now in his 40s, left law school with about $170,000 in student loans — $20,000 for undergraduate studies at Arizona State and $150,000 for law school. He also owed $16,500 on credit cards. After law school, he began working 24 to 32 hours a week at the Franklin County Public Defender’s Office earning $12 an hour. He made no payments on student loans and failed to pay his credit cards.

Loveland said a major problem was that Griffin had said he was going to file for bankruptcy to get time to pass the bar and find full-time work. But he never filed the bankruptcy petition as promised. Although bankruptcy would not have eliminated his law loans, it might have reduced the size of his payments.

No sympathy for him, especially as pertains to the credit card load. Hell, I actually have more than that out there although most is at 0% while simultaneously making me money in other accounts.

Further, considering that most issuers are still only requiring 1% plus accumulated interest, his $16.5K means he is looking at probably no more than $350 per month at bare bones minimum payments (unless he got the cards with willy fu-fu APR's).

[A'nold]

This is so freaking messed up. I'll be screwed if this becomes the new "thang."

Did you even read the article?

Uh, yeah, did you use any of your reasoning skills while reading the article?

Just b/c dude has 16,500 or whatever in student loan debt and he isn't paying it doesn't make him a bad person or mean he has a character flaw. That much credit card debt is definitely not uncommon in this country AND 170k is not an astronomical amount for UG and law school debt combined.

He's working part-time at $12 an hour in a legal position. What the hell else does the bar expect him to do? I'm sure he, you know, has to LIVE? His "plan" was to become an attorney and hopefully pay off his debt through working in a job that he just spent 3 years slaving away to earn.......give me a break people.

he also claimed he was going to wash it away via he filing of BK...and then he never filed. In other words, he basically walked the debt. And THAT is a no-no when applying for the Bar in probably every one of the State Bar Associations around the country.

Court filings say that Griffin, now in his 40s, left law school with about $170,000 in student loans — $20,000 for undergraduate studies at Arizona State and $150,000 for law school. He also owed $16,500 on credit cards. After law school, he began working 24 to 32 hours a week at the Franklin County Public Defender’s Office earning $12 an hour. He made no payments on student loans and failed to pay his credit cards.

Loveland said a major problem was that Griffin had said he was going to file for bankruptcy to get time to pass the bar and find full-time work. But he never filed the bankruptcy petition as promised. Although bankruptcy would not have eliminated his law loans, it might have reduced the size of his payments.

No sympathy for him, especially as pertains to the credit card load. Hell, I actually have more than that out there although most is at 0% while simultaneously making me money in other accounts.

Further, considering that most issuers are still only requiring 1% plus accumulated interest, his $16.5K means he is looking at probably no more than $350 per month at bare bones minimum payments (unless he got the cards with willy fu-fu APR's).

Yeah, BUT:
1. He's making $12 an hour pt. He DOES NOT have 350 a month, I can guarantee it.
2. State Bars decline people all the time for having a BK on their credit report. This guy is probably damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. That's messed up that they won't let him at least try to pay off his debt in the field he trained for 3 years in and took on 150k to get.

[TommyK]

Yeah, I have absolutely no sympathy for this guy. He failed the bar three times and has been working PT since then? The Ohio bar is doing Ohioans a favor by not admitting this guy; he'd be a liability to any potential client unfortunate enough to be represented by this guy.

[A'nold]

Yeah, I have absolutely no sympathy for this guy. He failed the bar three times and has been working PT since then? The Ohio bar is doing Ohioans a favor by not admitting this guy; he'd be a liability to any potential client unfortunate enough to be represented by this guy.

O.k., but don't we have to think of this with a legal mind?

Since you can still be admitted through "Character and Fitness" if you fail the bar three times, that info should be irrelevant. As for the "pt work," he likely thought (and rightly so) that he was luckier than crap to get even this job in the legal field and thought that it would be a career killer to start working full time at McDonald's.

[TommyK]

Yeah, I have absolutely no sympathy for this guy. He failed the bar three times and has been working PT since then? The Ohio bar is doing Ohioans a favor by not admitting this guy; he'd be a liability to any potential client unfortunate enough to be represented by this guy.

O.k., but don't we have to think of this with a legal mind?

Since you can still be admitted through "Character and Fitness" if you fail the bar three times, that info should be irrelevant. As for the "pt work," he likely thought (and rightly so) that he was luckier than crap to get even this job in the legal field and thought that it would be a career killer to start working full time at McDonald's.

I wasn't using that as justification for why he should get denied, though I can see how it reads that way. I just am completely happy as an Ohioan that he isn't out there trying to represent people.

He has massive amounts of debt (including non-educational loans) that he has not demonstrated an ability and willingness to pay back. As for him working PT, yes he should be doing that, but I see about 50 hours per week that he could be working elsewhere also. It seems his attorneys (and ATL, Huffington Post, and a bunch of other media entities) are trying to reframe this as him getting rejected just because he had a lot of student loans. While we don't know the details of the case, I find it highly unlikely that this is even remotely reflective of reality.

[A'nold]

Yeah, I have absolutely no sympathy for this guy. He failed the bar three times and has been working PT since then? The Ohio bar is doing Ohioans a favor by not admitting this guy; he'd be a liability to any potential client unfortunate enough to be represented by this guy.

O.k., but don't we have to think of this with a legal mind?

Since you can still be admitted through "Character and Fitness" if you fail the bar three times, that info should be irrelevant. As for the "pt work," he likely thought (and rightly so) that he was luckier than crap to get even this job in the legal field and thought that it would be a career killer to start working full time at McDonald's.

I wasn't using that as justification for why he should get denied, though I can see how it reads that way. I just am completely happy as an Ohioan that he isn't out there trying to represent people.

He has massive amounts of debt (including non-educational loans) that he has not demonstrated an ability and willingness to pay back. As for him working PT, yes he should be doing that, but I see about 50 hours per week that he could be working elsewhere also. It seems his attorneys (and ATL, Huffington Post, and a bunch of other media entities) are trying to reframe this as him getting rejected just because he had a lot of student loans. While we don't know the details of the case, I find it highly unlikely that this is even remotely reflective of reality.

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

[TommyK]

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

[A'nold]

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

I guess it's just hard for me to swallow that just b/c he is not paying his bills that he has character issues. I've had times in my life where I've went months without contacting creditors out of shame, helplessness, etc. and I've been a good, law abiding citizen my entire life. If the bar can make a snap judgment about my character due to "financial recklessness" when 1. people make mistakes and 2. I might not have been reckless, just unfortunate and poor, it really takes a lot of the respect I have for these kinds of organizations away.

Also, people like me that grew up in poverty but were not AA material (please oh please let's not turn this into an AA debate: I support AA, I'm just saying that I am a white male that did not get grants for my education) have to try to pull ourselves up the social and economic ladder somehow, and that usually involves taking out MASSIVE student loans, unfortunately.

Most of the law school peeps I've met had UG paid for them by their parents or through grants. It sucks when you are completely on your own in your teens.

[too old for this sh*]

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

I guess it's just hard for me to swallow that just b/c he is not paying his bills that he has character issues. I've had times in my life where I've went months without contacting creditors out of shame, helplessness, etc. and I've been a good, law abiding citizen my entire life. If the bar can make a snap judgment about my character due to "financial recklessness" when 1. people make mistakes and 2. I might not have been reckless, just unfortunate and poor, it really takes a lot of the respect I have for these kinds of organizations away.

Also, people like me that grew up in poverty but were not AA material (please oh please let's not turn this into an AA debate: I support AA, I'm just saying that I am a white male that did not get grants for my education) have to try to pull ourselves up the social and economic ladder somehow, and that usually involves taking out MASSIVE student loans, unfortunately.

Most of the law school peeps I've met had UG paid for them by their parents or through grants. It sucks when you are completely on your own in your teens.

remember that this is precisely the scenario that has given rise to more than one instance of an attorney dipping into IOLTA funds...the Bar is looking at the fiduciary responsibility components of practice when they focus on fiscal irresponsibilities by applicants.

And while it may not be an everyday occurrence, we have more than one active client right now serving pen time for the misappropriation of IOLTA funds precisely to pay personal bills. One of them has a 35 year sentence.

[TommyK]

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

I guess it's just hard for me to swallow that just b/c he is not paying his bills that he has character issues. I've had times in my life where I've went months without contacting creditors out of shame, helplessness, etc. and I've been a good, law abiding citizen my entire life. If the bar can make a snap judgment about my character due to "financial recklessness" when 1. people make mistakes and 2. I might not have been reckless, just unfortunate and poor, it really takes a lot of the respect I have for these kinds of organizations away.

Also, people like me that grew up in poverty but were not AA material (please oh please let's not turn this into an AA debate: I support AA, I'm just saying that I am a white male that did not get grants for my education) have to try to pull ourselves up the social and economic ladder somehow, and that usually involves taking out MASSIVE student loans, unfortunately.

Most of the law school peeps I've met had UG paid for them by their parents or through grants. It sucks when you are completely on your own in your teens.

I guess a couple things, and then I'll let this thread die:

Here is the official report: http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/do ... hio-20.pdf

He has been unable to make a credit card payment for more than 2 years

He has been unable to make a student loan payment for 1.5 years

In January 2010, he said that he planned on filing for bankruptcy as a plan to help relieve himself of some of that debt. 4 months later, he still had not filed that petition. If he had actually filed the bankruptcy paperwork, followed through with it, showed a desire and willingness to do everything in his power to get himself out of that situation, I would not be surprised if things would have turned out differently. As the facts are stated in the report, it would scare the bejesus out of me for him to be out there, representing people - entrusted with their secrets, liberty, and finances.

When you admit somebody into the bar, you're saying that they have the characteristics that inspire trust. Mr. Griffin has demonstrated a notable lack of trust or initiative.

For those who are afraid this is setting a dangerous precedent, be not afraid; this guy is not the typical "omg,i have so much debt now" situation facing many law grads.

[donzoli]

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

I guess it's just hard for me to swallow that just b/c he is not paying his bills that he has character issues. I've had times in my life where I've went months without contacting creditors out of shame, helplessness, etc. and I've been a good, law abiding citizen my entire life. If the bar can make a snap judgment about my character due to "financial recklessness" when 1. people make mistakes and 2. I might not have been reckless, just unfortunate and poor, it really takes a lot of the respect I have for these kinds of organizations away.

Also, people like me that grew up in poverty but were not AA material (please oh please let's not turn this into an AA debate: I support AA, I'm just saying that I am a white male that did not get grants for my education) have to try to pull ourselves up the social and economic ladder somehow, and that usually involves taking out MASSIVE student loans, unfortunately.

Most of the law school peeps I've met had UG paid for them by their parents or through grants. It sucks when you are completely on your own in your teens.

I guess a couple things, and then I'll let this thread die:

Here is the official report: http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/do ... hio-20.pdf

He has been unable to make a credit card payment for more than 2 years

He has been unable to make a student loan payment for 1.5 years

In January 2010, he said that he planned on filing for bankruptcy as a plan to help relieve himself of some of that debt. 4 months later, he still had not filed that petition. If he had actually filed the bankruptcy paperwork, followed through with it, showed a desire and willingness to do everything in his power to get himself out of that situation, I would not be surprised if things would have turned out differently. As the facts are stated in the report, it would scare the bejesus out of me for him to be out there, representing people - entrusted with their secrets, liberty, and finances.

When you admit somebody into the bar, you're saying that they have the characteristics that inspire trust. Mr. Griffin has demonstrated a notable lack of trust or initiative.

For those who are afraid this is setting a dangerous precedent, be not afraid; this guy is not the typical "omg,i have so much debt now" situation facing many law grads.

I don't believe that his failure to file for bankruptcy within 4 months makes this guy a horrible human being like some others make him out to be. People are trivializing bankruptcy by making it sound like its as easy to go through as posting on a message board. Not only is it not easy, it can also be somewhat humiliating.

[A'nold]

I hope this is the case. If this article is accurate though I would be highly disappointed in Ohio's bar.

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

I guess it's just hard for me to swallow that just b/c he is not paying his bills that he has character issues. I've had times in my life where I've went months without contacting creditors out of shame, helplessness, etc. and I've been a good, law abiding citizen my entire life. If the bar can make a snap judgment about my character due to "financial recklessness" when 1. people make mistakes and 2. I might not have been reckless, just unfortunate and poor, it really takes a lot of the respect I have for these kinds of organizations away.

Also, people like me that grew up in poverty but were not AA material (please oh please let's not turn this into an AA debate: I support AA, I'm just saying that I am a white male that did not get grants for my education) have to try to pull ourselves up the social and economic ladder somehow, and that usually involves taking out MASSIVE student loans, unfortunately.

Most of the law school peeps I've met had UG paid for them by their parents or through grants. It sucks when you are completely on your own in your teens.

I guess a couple things, and then I'll let this thread die:

Here is the official report: http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/do ... hio-20.pdf

He has been unable to make a credit card payment for more than 2 years

He has been unable to make a student loan payment for 1.5 years

In January 2010, he said that he planned on filing for bankruptcy as a plan to help relieve himself of some of that debt. 4 months later, he still had not filed that petition. If he had actually filed the bankruptcy paperwork, followed through with it, showed a desire and willingness to do everything in his power to get himself out of that situation, I would not be surprised if things would have turned out differently. As the facts are stated in the report, it would scare the bejesus out of me for him to be out there, representing people - entrusted with their secrets, liberty, and finances.

When you admit somebody into the bar, you're saying that they have the characteristics that inspire trust. Mr. Griffin has demonstrated a notable lack of trust or initiative.

For those who are afraid this is setting a dangerous precedent, be not afraid; this guy is not the typical "omg,i have so much debt now" situation facing many law grads.

I can be o.k. with them denying him as long as he gets the chance to "rehabilitate." If he files for bk, keeps his part-time job, gets a second job and tries to cut a deal with the student loan peeps, and makes on-time payments for, say a year, I think he should get some kind of (I doubt this exists but maybe?) provisional license and if he reverts back then maybe he is really a lost cause.

[BrianGriffintheDog]

I'm afraid to go to law school now

[jasonc.]

why did he fail 3 times? who decides to take on 150,000 loan at 35 with 16,000 credit card debt

[A'nold]

No doubt. What I imagine has happened is this - he racked up debt, then got into > 15k CC debt, has missed several payments in a row, and upon investigation, he hasn't attempted to set up any payment plans with creditors. This is not the kind of ethics, self-control, or financial restraint I would permit in somebody who is applying for a bar in my state. Maybe I'm foolishly trustful of authority, but this situation doesn't worry me.

I guess it's just hard for me to swallow that just b/c he is not paying his bills that he has character issues. I've had times in my life where I've went months without contacting creditors out of shame, helplessness, etc. and I've been a good, law abiding citizen my entire life. If the bar can make a snap judgment about my character due to "financial recklessness" when 1. people make mistakes and 2. I might not have been reckless, just unfortunate and poor, it really takes a lot of the respect I have for these kinds of organizations away.

Also, people like me that grew up in poverty but were not AA material (please oh please let's not turn this into an AA debate: I support AA, I'm just saying that I am a white male that did not get grants for my education) have to try to pull ourselves up the social and economic ladder somehow, and that usually involves taking out MASSIVE student loans, unfortunately.

Most of the law school peeps I've met had UG paid for them by their parents or through grants. It sucks when you are completely on your own in your teens.

I guess a couple things, and then I'll let this thread die:

Here is the official report: http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod/do ... hio-20.pdf

He has been unable to make a credit card payment for more than 2 years

He has been unable to make a student loan payment for 1.5 years

In January 2010, he said that he planned on filing for bankruptcy as a plan to help relieve himself of some of that debt. 4 months later, he still had not filed that petition. If he had actually filed the bankruptcy paperwork, followed through with it, showed a desire and willingness to do everything in his power to get himself out of that situation, I would not be surprised if things would have turned out differently. As the facts are stated in the report, it would scare the bejesus out of me for him to be out there, representing people - entrusted with their secrets, liberty, and finances.

When you admit somebody into the bar, you're saying that they have the characteristics that inspire trust. Mr. Griffin has demonstrated a notable lack of trust or initiative.

For those who are afraid this is setting a dangerous precedent, be not afraid; this guy is not the typical "omg,i have so much debt now" situation facing many law grads.

I don't believe that his failure to file for bankruptcy within 4 months makes this guy a horrible human being like some others make him out to be. People are trivializing bankruptcy by making it sound like its as easy to go through as posting on a message board. Not only is it not easy, it can also be somewhat humiliating.

Not to mention, many bars have been known to deny a person's eligibility in character and fitness precisely b/c a bk on the record apparently shows a lack of character. Not only will it be risky at best to file but when he does tons of employers will basically "auto-ding" him for doing what the bar seems to be implying as the responsible thing.

I don't know man, I have a big problem with state bars making such a big deal about finances and judging people like they know their situation and that they are just mooches on society or something. If the dude commits a crime with the escrow money then he goes to jail....I think that's deterrence enough.