Biglaw chances at University of Toronto Forum

[Trequartista]

What are the big law chances for university of Toronto students? I have heard that some big firms from New York and Boston recruit there. But I am guessing that ITE it must be really hard to secure biglaw from there.

[spock]

this year, about 30-40 UofT kids interviewed, about 10-12 i think got offers. 6 firms did OCI's, 2-3 collected applications. You'd want to be in the top 20-25% to get interviews, after that, 'fit' seems more important

[Crim]

I can name 15 people who accepted New York offers, and I'm sure there are a few more I don't know about. Also, many extremely talented people self-select out because they're set on staying in Canada. I would hazard that top third would get you an OCI somewhere, and as Spock said, it really is fit after that. For example, the firm I'll be working at gave seven OCIs, leading to five offers, while others interviewed 20+ and only extended a couple of offers. It will also likely get better. In pre-recession times, I've heard that there were about 30-40 offers.

The strange thing about US recruiting in Canada is that only very highly-ranked firms participate; indeed the lowest this year was still V25. So the chances of getting BigLaw are undoubtedly better at a T14 school, but top at UofT do very well compared to the top at many of the T14.

[Trequartista]

I think the U of T compares favorably with the lower T-14. True big law offers in the states will be limited to only the top students, but U of T also places very well in Canadian big law. It has the highest placement of any school in Canada in Canadian big law. Cost of attendance is much lower as well, though high for a Canadian school. Not a bad decision to go to U of T in favor of the lower T-14, I would think.

[Crim]

Well, it kind of depends on what you want. Canadian BigLaw is a different beast altogether: much lower pay and moderately shorter hours, but much higher job security and partnership prospects. If these last two things are priorities for you, by all means UofT is the place to be, but the difference in pay is substantial.

[Trequartista]

What kind of a salary are we looking at for first year associates in the big firms in Toronto? 90k is the number that I have seen thrown around a lot but that was based on older figures I think.

[crazycanuck]

What kind of a salary are we looking at for first year associates in the big firms in Toronto? 90k is the number that I have seen thrown around a lot but that was based on older figures I think.

It seems to be about 90k for articling students and then increases afterwards.

You have to remember that becoming a fully fledged lawyer in Canada is much different. You have to complete an articling period before you are eligible for a license (not sure if you must complete the articling period before you sit for the BAR). The articling students get paid less. It's a training period. The articling pay is around 90k in Calgary/Toronto and 75k in Vancouver/Montreal.

http://www.lawstudents.ca is a good place to ask these kinds of questions.

[Crim]

You can find Canadian salary information on the Canadian NALP directory. Crazycanuck's numbers are a bit inflated, though: the top firms generally pay 75K for articling and 90-100K for first-year associates in Toronto. It's also lower in other cities. For example, in Vancouver, it's around 45K-50K for articling, and 80-85K for first-years.

[crazycanuck]

You can find Canadian salary information on the Canadian NALP directory. Crazycanuck's numbers are a bit inflated, though: the top firms generally pay 75K for articling and 90-100K for first-year associates in Toronto. It's also lower in other cities. For example, in Vancouver, it's around 45K-50K for articling, and 80-85K for first-years.

Really it's that low in Vancouver eh? I didn't know. I make almost that much as an articling student at an accounting firm and I didn't need to do an extra 3 years of law school.

My numbers were merely best guesses.

[motiontodismiss]

You can find Canadian salary information on the Canadian NALP directory. Crazycanuck's numbers are a bit inflated, though: the top firms generally pay 75K for articling and 90-100K for first-year associates in Toronto. It's also lower in other cities. For example, in Vancouver, it's around 45K-50K for articling, and 80-85K for first-years.

Sounds about right. Also $80kish for first years in Calgary.

Wait, Canada has a NALP directory?

[someone99]

Go to the November 2010 issue for information about Bay Street OCI placements:
http://www.ultravires.ca/

[niederbomb]

Well, it kind of depends on what you want. Canadian BigLaw is a different beast altogether: much lower pay and moderately shorter hours, but much higher job security and partnership prospects. If these last two things are priorities for you, by all means UofT is the place to be, but the difference in pay is substantial.

Of course, the pay difference is only substantial if you're one of the few U.S. law students outside of HYSCCN who actually get BigLaw.

I would be surprised if the average salary for a UofT student is not higher than the average salary of a GULC or Cornell grad, for example.

Thus, U.S. law schools have the possibility of offering more short-term reward but entail a lot more risk/debt. It all depends on what your values are.

[A&O]

if you're one of the few U.S. law students outside of HYSCCN who actually get BigLaw.

This is exaggerating things a bit, isn't it? Plenty of students outside these jobs get biglaw. Sure, even if just 30% of Georgetown placed into a V100 firm (just throwing some random number out there), 30% of 600 is 180 people. That's a lot of students. Then there's Cornell, Duke, Northwestern, etc.

I would be surprised if the average salary for a UofT student is not higher than the average salary of a GULC or Cornell grad, for example.

Given what I said above, you should be surprised.

[Crim]

This is exaggerating things a bit, isn't it?

Agreed. Although UofT probably does have a higher proportion of graduates working in the legal field immediately after graduation than many, if not most, T14s, the average income is almost certainly lower. This year, about 83 students (out of around 210, including transfers) have summer positions at market-paying Toronto firms, but remember that Toronto market articling salaries are less than half of New York first-years. And then aside from the 15 or so who have V25 NY jobs for the summer, the other UofT folks will be working in other Canadian markets that pay less (see above).

Thus, U.S. law schools have the possibility of offering more short-term reward but entail a lot more risk/debt. It all depends on what your values are.

This is still true, since job security and partnership prospects are signficantly higher at Canadian firms, and debt loads are considerably lower coming out of UofT (which has far and away the highest tuition in Canada at 23k).

[Seally]

I can name 15 people who accepted New York offers, and I'm sure there are a few more I don't know about. Also, many extremely talented people self-select out because they're set on staying in Canada. I would hazard that top third would get you an OCI somewhere, and as Spock said, it really is fit after that. For example, the firm I'll be working at gave seven OCIs, leading to five offers, while others interviewed 20+ and only extended a couple of offers. It will also likely get better. In pre-recession times, I've heard that there were about 30-40 offers.

The strange thing about US recruiting in Canada is that only very highly-ranked firms participate; indeed the lowest this year was still V25. So the chances of getting BigLaw are undoubtedly better at a T14 school, but top at UofT do very well compared to the top at many of the T14.

UofT, McGill and Osgoode Hall (The top 3 Law Schools in Canada) have very good placement stats in Canadian BigLaw, many U.S. Firms actually show up and recruit at these 3, except that McGill also has European/Asian Firms showing up for recruiting as well, which UofT and Osgoode do not have.

Anyways, every Canadian Law School has potential, more than 90% of U.S. Law Schools out there (No TTTs here in Canada), even UVic grads have a chance to hit BigLaw in Canada.

Though the only Low ranked Canadian Law School that place very, very, very well in BigLaw is University of Montreal, since Quebec needs Civil Law grads and all Canadian/France Big firms recognize UdeM to be superior than other Civil Law schools, they also have a Partnership with Osgoode that allows you to get both LL.B./J.D.(Common Law) for a joke tuition in only 1 more year, those with that dual degree usually place well everywhere.
It's LL.B./M.B.A. program given alongside HEC is becoming even more popular than McGill's LL.B./M.B.A., something to consider too, but since it's a 3 years program, expect to pull all-nighters for the next 2 years of your life...

Just my two cents about Canada.

[niederbomb]

if you're one of the few U.S. law students outside of HYSCCN who actually get BigLaw.

This is exaggerating things a bit, isn't it? Plenty of students outside these jobs get biglaw. Sure, even if just 30% of Georgetown placed into a V100 firm (just throwing some random number out there), 30% of 600 is 180 people. That's a lot of students. Then there's Cornell, Duke, Northwestern, etc.

I would be surprised if the average salary for a UofT student is not higher than the average salary of a GULC or Cornell grad, for example.

Given what I said above, you should be surprised.

Since we don't have accurate employment data on lower-ranked T14's such as Gtown, we can't say for sure. They all might fudge their numbers.

However, I have read about small town firms in West Virginia recruiting GTown grads for temporary document review. And a lot of lower T-14 grads seem to have trouble finding any legal employment at all. Even if 25% of the class still gets Big Law paying $140,000 per year, having a significant number of 0's can bring down your average fast. How many 0's? We just don't know. American universities are run like businesses, and thus, this is a trade secret carefully protected by the marketing department.

Also, it's not quite accurate to compare articling salaries with first year U.S. associate salaries; a better comparison would be Canadian 2nd year associate salaries with U.S. 2nd year associate salaries. Then, the difference is about 20-30% for C Big Law versus U.S. Big Law.

Depending upon how many Gtown/Duke/Cornell graduates move in with Mom and Dad after graduation, it's hard to say what the true average salary is at those schools and how it compares to UofT/McGill.

[A&O]

Since we don't have accurate employment data on lower-ranked T14's such as Gtown, we can't say for sure. They all might fudge their numbers.

Your reasoning makes no sense. Your argument is that because we have no data on x, not-x must be true.

(1) That's not the case.
(2) It's well known around here what, roughly, schools like Georgetown and between Georgetown and NYU are placing into market-paying biglaw jobs.

ven if 25% of the class still gets Big Law paying $140,000 per year, having a significant number of 0's can bring down your average fast. How many 0's?

...so what? A similar point can be made for graduates of Canadian schools.

Also, it's not quite accurate to compare articling salaries with first year U.S. associate salaries; a better comparison would be Canadian 2nd year associate salaries with U.S. 2nd year associate salaries.

You say this, but provide no argument for why the comparison should be as such.

Depending upon how many Gtown/Duke/Cornell graduates move in with Mom and Dad after graduation, it's hard to say what the true average salary is at those schools and how it compares to UofT/McGill.

It really doesn't take much reasoning or feats of imagination to understand that the average earnings out of those three schools trump that of any Canadian law school.



The Canadian system is just the American system, with money distributed differently. With cheaper law schools comes lower starting salaries. That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate. But, if one looks at pure salary statistics, I can't fathom that any Canadian school beats out any T14. And I'm willing to throw some non-T14s in the pot too.

[Seally]

Since we don't have accurate employment data on lower-ranked T14's such as Gtown, we can't say for sure. They all might fudge their numbers.

Your reasoning makes no sense. Your argument is that because we have no data on x, not-x must be true.

(1) That's not the case.
(2) It's well known around here what, roughly, schools like Georgetown and between Georgetown and NYU are placing into market-paying biglaw jobs.

ven if 25% of the class still gets Big Law paying $140,000 per year, having a significant number of 0's can bring down your average fast. How many 0's?

...so what? A similar point can be made for graduates of Canadian schools.

Also, it's not quite accurate to compare articling salaries with first year U.S. associate salaries; a better comparison would be Canadian 2nd year associate salaries with U.S. 2nd year associate salaries.

You say this, but provide no argument for why the comparison should be as such.

Depending upon how many Gtown/Duke/Cornell graduates move in with Mom and Dad after graduation, it's hard to say what the true average salary is at those schools and how it compares to UofT/McGill.

It really doesn't take much reasoning or feats of imagination to understand that the average earnings out of those three schools trump that of any Canadian law school.



The Canadian system is just the American system, with money distributed differently. With cheaper law schools comes lower starting salaries. That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate. But, if one looks at pure salary statistics, I can't fathom that any Canadian school beats out any T14. And I'm willing to throw some non-T14s in the pot too.

With lower starting salaries comes lower cost of life and better job security with a healthier market.

[A&O]

With lower starting salaries comes lower cost of life and better job security with a healthier market.

Thank you for repeating exactly what I posted:

That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate.

And "healthier" market is disputable.

[Seally]

With lower starting salaries comes lower cost of life and better job security with a healthier market.

Thank you for repeating exactly what I posted:

That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate.

And "healthier" market is disputable.

Just simplified your post, some people are just not willing to read all of that

[crazycanuck]

The Canadian system is just the American system, with money distributed differently. With cheaper law schools comes lower starting salaries. That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate. But, if one looks at pure salary statistics, I can't fathom that any Canadian school beats out any T14. And I'm willing to throw some non-T14s in the pot too.

I have a friend at UBC law, she knows of 1 person who is an unemployed 3L, and that person is apparently the bottom of the class (as in dead last).

Usually no more than the bottom 10% of the class can't find law jobs (which they shouldn't) and Canadian BigLaw is achievable out of every school, regardless of what is paid in tuition. Lots of people from the University of Manitoba/Saskatchewan who are on Bay Street.

Basically in Canada you go to school where you want to practice and unless you really sucked, you will find a job.

[Kohinoor]

Lots of people from the University of Manitoba/Saskatchewan who are on Bay Street.

Is Bay Street like Wall Street with more mooses?

[thexfactor]

The Canadian system is just the American system, with money distributed differently. With cheaper law schools comes lower starting salaries. That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate. But, if one looks at pure salary statistics, I can't fathom that any Canadian school beats out any T14. And I'm willing to throw some non-T14s in the pot too.

I have a friend at UBC law, she knows of 1 person who is an unemployed 3L, and that person is apparently the bottom of the class (as in dead last).

Usually no more than the bottom 10% of the class can't find law jobs (which they shouldn't) and Canadian BigLaw is achievable out of every school, regardless of what is paid in tuition. Lots of people from the University of Manitoba/Saskatchewan who are on Bay Street.

Basically in Canada you go to school where you want to practice and unless you really sucked, you will find a job.

Anyone else care to comment? Is this true?

[Crim]

The Canadian system is just the American system, with money distributed differently. With cheaper law schools comes lower starting salaries. That aside, when one factors in loan payments and cost of living, a Canadian law graduate might be better off than a US top law school graduate. But, if one looks at pure salary statistics, I can't fathom that any Canadian school beats out any T14. And I'm willing to throw some non-T14s in the pot too.

I have a friend at UBC law, she knows of 1 person who is an unemployed 3L, and that person is apparently the bottom of the class (as in dead last).

Usually no more than the bottom 10% of the class can't find law jobs (which they shouldn't) and Canadian BigLaw is achievable out of every school, regardless of what is paid in tuition. Lots of people from the University of Manitoba/Saskatchewan who are on Bay Street.

Basically in Canada you go to school where you want to practice and unless you really sucked, you will find a job.

Impossible to tell, since Canadian schools are reliant on self-reporting like everyone else. For what it's worth, UofT's stats sheet shows 184/196 having a job lined up by graduation for the class of 2009. Admittedly, this was pre-recession, but the recession really hasn't impacted Canadian legal hiring as much (i.e. class sizes are the same they've always been), so I'd wager the numbers would be similar every year. This is reflected by this year's Toronto OCI results, which show more UofT students on Bay Street than ever before.

[crazycanuck]

Lots of people from the University of Manitoba/Saskatchewan who are on Bay Street.

Is Bay Street like Wall Street with more mooses?

Yes with a primary focus on the fur trade.