Tax Law Forum

[Anonymous User]

Have a strong interest in doing tax law eventually. I'm at GULC where they let you roll 12 credits for your JD into the LLM (meaning you have your LLM in tax after 1 extra semester as opposed to 2). GULC also lets the Tax LLM candidates go through OCI again as a 2L. I'm trying to find some tax specific experience for the summer and need some ideas. I did not get IRS honors, and am waiting to hear from the generic IRS summer intern program. I talked to every judge at the Tax Court and they are unsure of their budgets and therefore not taking interns for the summer at this time. DOJ tax only takes those who were hired through DOJ Slip because of confidentiality issues. While making some money this summer would be nice, it certainly is not imperative as I have some significant savings from a few years in the work force. Any ideas welcome...

[edcrane]

What year are you?

[Anonymous User]

Currently a 2L.

[edcrane]

Have you spoken to any of your tax professors? DC is a pretty small town for tax lawyers. Many professors have strong connections with the local firms (Ivins, Caplin, Miller Chevalier, etc.), and I know for a fact that people have landed summer positions/fulltime jobs this way.

Also, if you haven't done so already, speak to the director of the LLM program. In addition to getting some ideas for employment for next summer, you should ask about whether they have any sort of scholarship/funding for GULC JD/LLM students. At NYU, there's a non-competitive program that sends JD/LLMs to the IRS/treasury for one semester, during which time the student works for free but is provided with a living stipend by NYU, and then provides them with funding for a semester of LLM classes. If GULC has something like that, it would definitely be worth applying to.

[Anonymous User]

Check state DOR's and in-house departments, some have tax departments and take interns. They are often not advertised that well either. I worked at one a couple of years ago and it was a great experience.

[nealric]

I am in the final semester of GULC's JD/LLM program if you want to PM me.

[Anonymous User]

DOJ tax only takes those who were hired through DOJ Slip because of confidentiality issues

That's strange. I worked at DOJ tax 3-4 years ago, and they had volunteer interns.

[motiontodismiss]

DOJ tax only takes those who were hired through DOJ Slip because of confidentiality issues

That's strange. I worked at DOJ tax 3-4 years ago, and they had volunteer interns.

They make you sign a confidentiality agreement or something like that. At least they did at my local PD's office.

[Anonymous User]

OP Back, Thanks for the ideas.

Yeh, I was surprised by the lack of DOJ Tax interns as well. I met with them at the PI job fair and they said it was a new thing.

[bree]

DOJ tax only takes those who were hired through DOJ Slip because of confidentiality issues

That's strange. I worked at DOJ tax 3-4 years ago, and they had volunteer interns.

Could you private message me or post about your experience at DOJ Tax? I'm applying for DOJ SLIP and would curious to learn more. Thanks!

[XM3045]

Could you private message me or post about your experience at DOJ Tax? I'm applying for DOJ SLIP and would curious to learn more. Thanks!

Hey, I could be incorrect, but I think DOJ SLIP deadline was back in September. If you're talking about next year, then just ignore this.

[taxguy]

Don't rule out working for a Big 4 accouinting firm. They pay their interns pretty well and will hire you if they like you. The only problem is that they start out new hires at about 60K vs. law firm starting salaries of between 80K-160K

[motiontodismiss]

Don't rule out working for a Big 4 accouinting firm. They pay their interns pretty well and will hire you if they like you. The only problem is that they start out new hires at about 60K vs. law firm starting salaries of between 80K-160K

Doesn't comp go up to ~$100k once you add in bonuses?

Well and there's the fact that you won't be working biglaw hours. And wait, don't they pay you overtime at a big 4? I have a hard time believing that biglaw and big 4 can be equally prestige whorish yet the latter pays half what the former does.

[mjustice]

Don't rule out working for a Big 4 accouinting firm. They pay their interns pretty well and will hire you if they like you. The only problem is that they start out new hires at about 60K vs. law firm starting salaries of between 80K-160K

Doesn't comp go up to ~$100k once you add in bonuses?

Well and there's the fact that you won't be working biglaw hours. And wait, don't they pay you overtime at a big 4? I have a hard time believing that biglaw and big 4 can be equally prestige whorish yet the latter pays half what the former does.

Big 4 is a viable option for people interested in building a legal career in tax. For Big-4, salary depends on market. For example, maybe some secondary market Big 4 offices pay $60k or so, but a major market, such as New York, pays ~100k. Overall, the hours are fewer than Biglaw, but during busy season (a few months out of the year at most), you can expect to be in the office as much as every waking hour, with only free time to sleep (this includes working weekends)--caveat, this may depend on your practice group. As for overtime, Big 4 pays interns overtime, but not full-time associates.

As far as being prestige-whorish, Big 4 doesn't seem to be as prestige-whorish as many law firms, as they seem to hire from law schools across the board (though, as is expected, school + class rank is very helpful if you want to get the internship offer).

[No, I am not Big 4 trying to sell Big 4. I am merely sharing information based on interviews (during law school) and conversations with friends at Big 4, specifically attorneys at the manager and director level]

[motiontodismiss]

Don't rule out working for a Big 4 accouinting firm. They pay their interns pretty well and will hire you if they like you. The only problem is that they start out new hires at about 60K vs. law firm starting salaries of between 80K-160K

Doesn't comp go up to ~$100k once you add in bonuses?

Well and there's the fact that you won't be working biglaw hours. And wait, don't they pay you overtime at a big 4? I have a hard time believing that biglaw and big 4 can be equally prestige whorish yet the latter pays half what the former does.

Big 4 is a viable option for people interested in building a legal career in tax. For Big-4, salary depends on market. For example, maybe some secondary market Big 4 offices pay $60k or so, but a major market, such as New York, pays ~100k. Overall, the hours are fewer than Biglaw, but during busy season (a few months out of the year at most), you can expect to be in the office as much as every waking hour, with only free time to sleep (this includes working weekends)--caveat, this may depend on your practice group. As for overtime, Big 4 pays interns overtime, but not full-time associates.

As far as being prestige-whorish, Big 4 doesn't seem to be as prestige-whorish as many law firms, as they seem to hire from law schools across the board (though, as is expected, school + class rank is very helpful if you want to get the internship offer).

[No, I am not Big 4 trying to sell Big 4. I am merely sharing information based on interviews (during law school) and conversations with friends at Big 4, specifically attorneys at the manager and director level]

Got it. That's what I figured-you'd need to pay something within screaming distance of $100k to attract the kind of smart kids that big 4 seems to want....(the kids that probably could get into biglaw).

Oh, and would Top 1/3 or so at a T30 have a reasonable shot at a big 4 in a major market (NY/DC/Chi/TX)? And I'm guessing they won't pay for your bar review course or your bar association dues (which will then come out of your own pocket).

[nealric]

Big 4 is a viable option for people interested in building a legal career in tax. For Big-4, salary depends on market. For example, maybe some secondary market Big 4 offices pay $60k or so, but a major market, such as New York, pays ~100k. Overall, the hours are fewer than Biglaw, but during busy season (a few months out of the year at most), you can expect to be in the office as much as every waking hour, with only free time to sleep (this includes working weekends)--caveat, this may depend on your practice group. As for overtime, Big 4 pays interns overtime, but not full-time associates.

Washington national tax offices usually pay ~120k. They are harder to get though. That said, I've heard that big4 can be pretty soul sucking. Biglaw hours without biglaw pay.

In fact, my corp tax II class was team taught by a biglaw partner and a big4 partner. The big4 partner said he billed over 500 hours a year more than the biglaw guy.

[mjustice]

Got it. That's what I figured-you'd need to pay something within screaming distance of $100k to attract the kind of smart kids that big 4 seems to want....(the kids that probably could get into biglaw).

Oh, and would Top 1/3 or so at a T30 have a reasonable shot at a big 4 in a major market (NY/DC/Chi/TX)? And I'm guessing they won't pay for your bar review course or your bar association dues (which will then come out of your own pocket).

At least with NY Offices, the Big 4 provide a signing bonus [for full-time employment only], bar reimbursements, and a bar-passage bonus. This is similar to the Big 4 regularly doing the same for incoming aspiring CPAs, rather than lawyers.

Also, I imagine top 1/3 at a T30 allows for a reasonable shot at a Big 4 in a major market. The focus of my interviews has had little to do with grades, and more on behavior and "fit." Moreover, the firms might pay more attention to your tax-related grades because they truly care little for how you did in Torts, for example. It's a just a hunch, though, that non-tax grades might be more important to the firms if you don't have a background in accounting (Big 4 recruit law students without any accounting background, but they may want to see some tax courses under your belt).

If you're really looking to work at Big 4, then your grades seem great to me, and because the focus of my interviews (including callbacks) has been on "fit" and "interest in the employer," you may want to try networking with Big 4 professionals (networking is how I got an interview and offer from a Big 4 firm in NY that doesn't recruit at my school--basically, you need to get your resume pulled out of a stack of thousands of resumes from grad students, law students, and undergrads across the country).

The question I have is, is there any opportunity in the future to switch from law firm to Big 4, or from Big 4 to law firm? My discussions with attorneys who have been in both have indicated that the attorneys often do similar tax-related work (but that it depends on the department in which you work at a Big 4--e.g., Financial services often has less to do with legal work and more to do with compliance, whereas State & Local, International, and M&A groups do more "deal-making," which involves substantial research and writing).

[Anonymous User]

Is anybody familiar with the hiring process for big 4?

[Anonymous User]

Is anybody familiar with the hiring process for big 4?

Also, how much do they pay JDs? LLMs?

[ron1321]

Is anybody familiar with the hiring process for big 4?

Also, how much do they pay JDs? LLMs?

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