Take BigLaw Forum

[Anonymous User]

Don't skip OCI, public interest-leaning people. I had the grades to easily land a summer associateship, but I skipped OCI because I "knew" that I didn't want to work for a firm. Then I thought, "Oh, I'll just get a clerkship," but apparently Top-20% from a T-6 isn't good enough to get a shit flyover clerkship these days. There is virtually nothing out there, and I'm looking at 180K in debt for a "great" degree that can't even get me a fucking job paying 40K. I kind of assumed that, if I had the grades and good references and experiences, I would be able to get an awesome public interest job in an area where I wanted to work. This is not going to happen. I wish I had just sucked it up and done BigLaw for a couple of years, like many of my fellow public-interest-minded classmates. Instead, I get to look forward to a grueling 3L year of applying for dozens of jobs in places I don't want to live.

I know that most on this site are all about BigLaw, but for others who are more lukewarm, take the job if you can get it. There is nothing else out there, even if you don't care what you make.

[mbw]

Don't skip OCI, public interest-leaning people. I had the grades to easily land a summer associateship, but I skipped OCI because I "knew" that I didn't want to work for a firm. Then I thought, "Oh, I'll just get a clerkship," but apparently Top-20% from a T-6 isn't good enough to get a shit flyover clerkship these days. There is virtually nothing out there, and I'm looking at 180K in debt for a "great" degree that can't even get me a fucking job paying 40K. I kind of assumed that, if I had the grades and good references and experiences, I would be able to get an awesome public interest job in an area where I wanted to work. This is not going to happen. I wish I had just sucked it up and done BigLaw for a couple of years, like many of my fellow public-interest-minded classmates. Instead, I get to look forward to a grueling 3L year of applying for dozens of jobs in places I don't want to live.

I know that most on this site are all about BigLaw, but for others who are more lukewarm, take the job if you can get it. There is nothing else out there, even if you don't care what you make.

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

[Unemployed]

Don't skip OCI, public interest-leaning people. I had the grades to easily land a summer associateship, but I skipped OCI because I "knew" that I didn't want to work for a firm. Then I thought, "Oh, I'll just get a clerkship," but apparently Top-20% from a T-6 isn't good enough to get a shit flyover clerkship these days. There is virtually nothing out there, and I'm looking at 180K in debt for a "great" degree that can't even get me a fucking job paying 40K. I kind of assumed that, if I had the grades and good references and experiences, I would be able to get an awesome public interest job in an area where I wanted to work. This is not going to happen. I wish I had just sucked it up and done BigLaw for a couple of years, like many of my fellow public-interest-minded classmates. Instead, I get to look forward to a grueling 3L year of applying for dozens of jobs in places I don't want to live.

I know that most on this site are all about BigLaw, but for others who are more lukewarm, take the job if you can get it. There is nothing else out there, even if you don't care what you make.

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

[Anonymous User]

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

Good luck champ. If you are going for something like state government, and you have experience in it, you'll probably be alright. Other than that, nothing exists. This isn't a "I didn't get a clerkship" thread. This is a "Entry-level Public Interest Lawyers jobs don't exist" thread, especially in this economy. I hope your smug, self-assured attitude works for you though, champ.

[NYAssociate]

.

[thrillhouse]

Don't skip OCI, public interest-leaning people. I had the grades to easily land a summer associateship, but I skipped OCI because I "knew" that I didn't want to work for a firm. Then I thought, "Oh, I'll just get a clerkship," but apparently Top-20% from a T-6 isn't good enough to get a shit flyover clerkship these days. There is virtually nothing out there, and I'm looking at 180K in debt for a "great" degree that can't even get me a fucking job paying 40K. I kind of assumed that, if I had the grades and good references and experiences, I would be able to get an awesome public interest job in an area where I wanted to work. This is not going to happen. I wish I had just sucked it up and done BigLaw for a couple of years, like many of my fellow public-interest-minded classmates. Instead, I get to look forward to a grueling 3L year of applying for dozens of jobs in places I don't want to live.

I know that most on this site are all about BigLaw, but for others who are more lukewarm, take the job if you can get it. There is nothing else out there, even if you don't care what you make.

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

I was also a misinformed public interest seeker. The paragraph above sums up my feeling about PI v. BigLaw before I actually worked in PI. After experience with three different organizations, I can say that this sentiment is absolutely misguided.

Except for the two or three wealthiest PI organizations (ACLU, etc.), PI organizations don't have the resources both in terms of finances or manpower to train anyone to be a lawyer. And, yes, this even applies to DA and PD jobs. Also, PI organizations are very disorganized. As a result, they waste a good portion of the little money that they have and waste the talents of the lawyers that they have in the process. Again, even in DA and PD jobs where you get trial experience right away, you're learning poor lawyering skills from largely mediocre (or worse) lawyers who don't know basic things like what Bates numbering is or how to do it.

The notion that you work many fewer hours than in BigLaw is also laughable. Perhaps you work fewer hours total, but not by much. You end up getting paid a quarter of the salary to work 9/10 of the hours.

On the other hand, the most "meaningful" work I've encountered is pro bono work at a BigLaw firm. Not only has it been meaningful, but it's been effective to such a degree that two different national congressional races were determined.

The reason the work was so effective is simple. BigLaw has both the cash and the horses to do PI stuff right.

[matty]

After working in PI this summer, I generally agree with the OP and am taking the approach it suggests. The public interest field, from what I've seen, is incredibly competitive right now. And yes, a lot of the time you're going to have to arrange to get an even more competitive fellowship to get your foot in the door. I am amazed at my classmates who I hear say, "If I don't get big law, I'll just do public interest." Uh...no, it doesn't work that way. I don't see myself working big law in the long term, but you can go from there to PI, whereas the opposite seems much, much harder.

[mbw]

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

Good luck champ. If you are going for something like state government, and you have experience in it, you'll probably be alright. Other than that, nothing exists. This isn't a "I didn't get a clerkship" thread. This is a "Entry-level public interest lawyers jobs don't exist" thread, especially in this economy. I hope your smug, self-assured attitude works for you though, champ.

Last I checked, the federal government employs 32,000 attorneys (a significant number which require Indian Preference.) There are also over 500 federally recognized and non-recognized tribes, and more than 3000 museums, universities, cultural heritage NGOs and advocacy organizations. There are probably less than 3 dozen people in the US with my specific credentials (T14, PhD/JD) and background (25 yrs WE, NDN.) If I can't find a job, even in this economic climate, then I frankly don't deserve one. Sorry if that sounds overly "self-assured" to you -- to me, it sounds as if I did my home work and planned, before I even applied to school, for a career outside of BigLaw, in an area well suited to my skills, education and interests.

[Unemployed]

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

Good luck champ. If you are going for something like state government, and you have experience in it, you'll probably be alright. Other than that, nothing exists. This isn't a "I didn't get a clerkship" thread. This is a "Entry-level public interest lawyers jobs don't exist" thread, especially in this economy. I hope your smug, self-assured attitude works for you though, champ.

Last I checked, the federal government employs 32,000 attorneys (a significant number which require Indian Preference.) There are also over 500 federally recognized and non-recognized tribes, and more than 3000 museums, universities, cultural heritage NGOs and advocacy organizations. There are probably less than 3 dozen people in the US with my specific credentials (T14, PhD/JD) and background (25 yrs WE, NDN.) If I can't find a job, even in this economic climate, then I frankly don't deserve one. Sorry if that sounds overly "self-assured" to you -- to me, it sounds as if I did my home work and planned, before I even applied to school, for a career outside of BigLaw, in an area well suited to my skills, education and interests.

Good for you (seriously, good for you). But:

But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience . . . shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us.

[Zar]

After working in PI this summer, I generally agree with the OP and am taking the approach it suggests. The public interest field, from what I've seen, is incredibly competitive right now. And yes, a lot of the time you're going to have to arrange to get an even more competitive fellowship to get your foot in the door. I am amazed at my classmates who I hear say, "If I don't get big law, I'll just do public interest." Uh...no, it doesn't work that way. I don't see myself working big law in the long term, but you can go from there to PI, whereas the opposite seems much, much harder.

This is what I am struggling with. I have a strong interest in working in a particular area of PI law, but I worry about having no jorb at all if I don't take biglaw now.

You say you can go from biglaw to PI, but I've always heard that PI orgs look for a demonstrated interest in their field specifically and PI work in general. Won't doing biglaw your 2L summer make them doubt that commitment?

I don't want to shut myself out of PI by taking the safe biglaw route...

[vanwinkle]

This thread is promising.

[mbw]

Good for you (seriously, good for you). But:

But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience . . . shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us.

Yeah, I know... But the whole "everyone must do BigLaw or they're DOOOOOOMed" mentality here at TLS is just over the top. I have classmates who skipped OCI and are doing fine getting government and PI interviews. And, yes, depending upon your interests, fellowships are just as useful, if not more so, than clerkships when attempting to break into specific areas. The legal world is changing, and it's going to take a lot more creativity for some people (even in the T14) to find a job that works for them. No, not everyone has work experience, advanced degrees, etc., that they can play off of when looking outside of BigLaw -- but those who do should be encouraged -- something that seems to happen less and less these days on TLS.

[thrillhouse]

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

Good luck champ. If you are going for something like state government, and you have experience in it, you'll probably be alright. Other than that, nothing exists. This isn't a "I didn't get a clerkship" thread. This is a "Entry-level public interest lawyers jobs don't exist" thread, especially in this economy. I hope your smug, self-assured attitude works for you though, champ.

Last I checked, the federal government employs 32,000 attorneys (a significant number which require Indian Preference.) There are also over 500 federally recognized and non-recognized tribes, and more than 3000 museums, universities, cultural heritage NGOs and advocacy organizations. There are probably less than 3 dozen people in the US with my specific credentials (T14, PhD/JD) and background (25 yrs WE, NDN.) If I can't find a job, even in this economic climate, then I frankly don't deserve one. Sorry if that sounds overly "self-assured" to you -- to me, it sounds as if I did my home work and planned, before I even applied to school, for a career outside of BigLaw, in an area well suited to my skills, education and interests.

The OP's single anecdotal story experience is much closer to the experience the rest of the people on this board are going to have. As you state, there are at most 36 people whose situation is analogous to yours. It was really disingenuous of you to give advice as though you were similarly situated to the rest of the soon-to-be law school graduates. In light of the new information about yourself, it was also disingenuous of you to speak as though you have any clue about what BigLaw is like.

So that this doesn't turn into a pissing contest, I also have more than a decade of WE pre-law school, also NDN, also T14 (significantly higher up the chain than Cornell, though like you I had a "wicked generous scholly" to Cornell).

For the most part, the people here are very young and very worried about what their futures are going to look like in this new legal economy--especially those that were T14 with significant loans. This market simply isn't what they signed on for. For you to belittle their fears and aspirations is asinine. There's rarely reason in this world to be an ass to someone else, and this definitely isn't one of those occasions.

[War Cardinal]

Why would anyone want a public interest job? I strongly agree with the title, take BigLaw.

[mbw]

The OP's single anecdotal story experience is much closer to the experience the rest of the people on this board are going to have. As you state, there are at most 36 people whose situation is analogous to yours. It was really disingenuous of you to give advice as though you were similarly situated to the rest of the soon-to-be law school graduates. In light of the new information about yourself, it was also disingenuous of you to speak as though you have any clue about what BigLaw is like.

So that this doesn't turn into a pissing contest, I also have more than a decade of WE pre-law school, also NDN, also T14 (significantly higher up the chain than Cornell, though like you I had a "wicked scholly" to Cornell).

For the most part, the people here are very young and very worried about what their futures are going to look like in this new legal economy--especially those that were T14 with significant loans. This market simply isn't what they signed on for. For you to belittle their fears and aspirations is asinine. There's rarely reason in this world to be an ass to someone else, and this definitely isn't one of those occasions.

I wasn't belittling their fears (which I assume are just as great in regard to getting a BigLaw 2L SA.) I was addressing the idea that to get into PI, using BigLaw as the springboard into PI is better/easier than going the traditional route (internship/externships/fellowships, applying direct, networking, etc.) As mentioned in many threads, PI and government employers often seek out applicants who show a real, long-term interest in public interest work, and especially in this period of mass deferrals, are concerned about taking on people they believe will just split for BigLaw at the first opportunity. From what I've seen here, and in real life, most people who go into school with plans to do PI aren't the young and scared shrinking violets you paint them as -- the ones I know -- even just a few years out of UG, have serious PI creds. I feel for the OP -- but her/his gameplan for PI, as described, was to look for a clerkship. Why is the default answer in that situation -- "I should have gone into BigLaw" versus "I should have employed a broader strategy"?

(and, yeah, way to not make this into a pissing contest - "significantly higher up the foodchain" )

[Drummingreg]

Why would anyone want a public interest job? I strongly agree with the title, take BigLaw.

QF fuck the proletariat, make $$$!

[sbalive]

This may be the case for someone who went into law school with little to no work experience in public interest/government, and/or thinks a clerkship defines the boundaries of appropriate public interest work. But seriously -- your single anecdotal experience not getting a clerkship shouldn't be reason enough for the rest of us PI/government aspirants to ditch our goals and head for the gulag of BigLaw. If I believed that all I could get was BL at this point, I would leave law school altogether - life is too short to spend even a year or two doing (mostly) crap work for (mostly) crap clients.

Good luck champ. If you are going for something like state government, and you have experience in it, you'll probably be alright. Other than that, nothing exists. This isn't a "I didn't get a clerkship" thread. This is a "Entry-level public interest lawyers jobs don't exist" thread, especially in this economy. I hope your smug, self-assured attitude works for you though, champ.

Last I checked, the federal government employs 32,000 attorneys (a significant number which require Indian Preference.) There are also over 500 federally recognized and non-recognized tribes, and more than 3000 museums, universities, cultural heritage NGOs and advocacy organizations. There are probably less than 3 dozen people in the US with my specific credentials (T14, PhD/JD) and background (25 yrs WE, NDN.) If I can't find a job, even in this economic climate, then I frankly don't deserve one. Sorry if that sounds overly "self-assured" to you -- to me, it sounds as if I did my home work and planned, before I even applied to school, for a career outside of BigLaw, in an area well suited to my skills, education and interests.

Wow. Are you for real?

Anyway, what I learned by talking to people in PI/impact lit is that they really respect BigLaw experience. There are ways of showing that you're interested in issues and networking with prospective employers -- pro bono if you can swing it, but even if not, writing, going to conferences and meetings both in your city and traveling to them, attending fundraisers, etc. It's not trivial, it takes time, but if you actually want that kind of a job you would presumably make the sacrifice.

I think it's a safe bet that most people who work in PI take this route. It's not just about paying loans; I've heard enough people at PI orgs openly say that they can't afford to train fresh graduates, and that makes sense. Also, from what I've heard, if you need more money or job security down the line, that early BigLaw experience is really key if you want to lateral back out from PI back to firms or in-house positions.

[War Cardinal]

There are probably less than 3 dozen people in the US with my specific credentials (T14, PhD/JD) and background (25 yrs WE, NDN.) If I can't find a job, even in this economic climate, then I frankly don't deserve one. Sorry if that sounds overly "self-assured" to you -- to me, it sounds as if I did my home work and planned, before I even applied to school, for a career outside of BigLaw, in an area well suited to my skills, education and interests.

In all likelihood, it will have taken you 25 more years to land the same job many of my classmates will land after their 3 years of law school. Great success.

[IAFG]

This thread is promising.

[Anonymous User]

I wasn't belittling their fears (which I assume are just as great in regard to getting a BigLaw 2L SA.) I was addressing the idea that to get into PI, using BigLaw as the springboard into PI is better/easier than going the traditional route (internship/externships/fellowships, applying direct, networking, etc.) As mentioned in many threads, PI and government employers often seek out applicants who show a real, long-term interest in public interest work, and especially in this period of mass deferrals, are concerned about taking on people they believe will just split for BigLaw at the first opportunity. From what I've seen here, and in real life, most people who go into school with plans to do PI aren't the young and scared shrinking violets you paint them as -- the ones I know -- even just a few years out of UG, have serious PI creds. I feel for the OP -- but her/his gameplan for PI, as described, was to look for a clerkship. Why is the default answer in that situation -- "I should have gone into BigLaw" versus "I should have employed a broader strategy"?

(and, yeah, way to not make this into a pissing contest - "significantly higher up the foodchain" )

My plan was never restricted to getting a clerkship - I knew there was a substantial possibility I would strike out. I have had several internships throughout law school, where I have cultivated strong references, like I said. I have even focused my public interest experiences into an area in which many public interest firms work. I have the commitment side covered and I have very strong grades from a top school. The problem is that the opportunities aren't out there. Sponsored fellowships are ridiculously competitive: Skadden and EJW fund about 60 individuals total each year. Organization-based fellowships are very rare and similarly competitive. Most fellowships also accept those exiting clerkships, which saturates the applicant pool even further. Everyone knows that getting a job with the federal government is not something to bank on, unless you've spent the past 40 years soaking up NA law.

From what I've seen of the Class of 2010 public interesters at my school, many have been forced to accept jobs that were less than ideal given their interests. My point was that, although I didn't really want BigLaw, if I'm going to be working in an area of the law that I'm not interested in, I might as well be paying off my loans.

[mbw]

Anyway, what I learned by talking to people in PI/impact lit is that they really respect BigLaw experience. There are ways of showing that you're interested in issues and networking with prospective employers -- pro bono if you can swing it, but even if not, writing, going to conferences and meetings both in your city and traveling to them, attending fundraisers, etc. It's not trivial, it takes time, but if you actually want that kind of a job you would presumably make the sacrifice.

I think it's a safe bet that most people who work in PI take this route. It's not just about paying loans; I've heard enough people at PI orgs openly say that they can't afford to train fresh graduates, and that makes sense. Also, from what I've heard, if you need more money or job security down the line, that early BigLaw experience is really key if you want to lateral back out from PI back to firms or in-house positions.

Really? You don't think that a lot of those BigLaw-to-PI types went into BigLaw by default, realized how much they hated it, and then used their pro bono contacts to parachute out when they couldn't take it any more? You believe that the NRDC staff is just lousy with attorneys who saw nothing wrong with planning to work on Big Energy accounts for 2-4 years, just so they could pay off their loans, and then save the planet from their former clients? (and, yeah, I do have some friends who claim this is exactly their plan -- but do I believe that it's "most people"? It would take actual data to convince me, as it seems so counter to my own experience.)

And to the OP (who I now see has responded): I'm really sorry that it didn't work out for you; it sounds like you did work very hard. But do you really want to use evidence your lack of success to discourage others from trying? Perhaps a warning that things are tough out there -- but to give up before the fight, and settle for a job they won't like, just to pay loans that are as easily discharged through IBR, when they might have greater success (for whatever reason)?

Anyway, I'm bowing out now (it was probably stupid to get in, but I'll blame lack of sleep and a 12 hour gallstone attack...)

[IAFG]

mbw's argument seems analogous to someone walking into a thread about the dismal prospects of people in the bottom quarter of their class and saying, "haha, not for everyone, suckers! some people's fathers are partners at V20s (like me)! i am set as are people in similar situations!"

[180orbust]

At my PI internship, I was told by an attorney who had made the switch from V10 to my organization that it was extremely difficult, and is easier to get a job straight from law school than switching from BigLaw. This attorney said that it was partially due to a general lack of trust and respect from PI people towards BigLaw people. Take this fwiw.

Just do a bunch of internships and clinics and try to meet as many people as possible in the PI sector. Its more about personal relationships in PI than grades, anyway.

[Adjudicator]

At my PI internship, I was told by an attorney who had made the switch from V10 to my organization that it was extremely difficult, and is easier to get a job straight from law school than switching from BigLaw. This attorney said that it was partially due to a general lack of trust and respect from PI people towards BigLaw people. Take this fwiw.

Sounds like those "PI people" are just jealous because they didn't get BigLaw.

[Blindmelon]

At my PI internship, I was told by an attorney who had made the switch from V10 to my organization that it was extremely difficult, and is easier to get a job straight from law school than switching from BigLaw. This attorney said that it was partially due to a general lack of trust and respect from PI people towards BigLaw people. Take this fwiw.

Just do a bunch of internships and clinics and try to meet as many people as possible in the PI sector. Its more about personal relationships in PI than grades, anyway.

Depends entirely on the PI organization. Legal Aid work? No one gets jobs there, but the small group that gets fellowships to work, then get taken on full time do not have private sector backgrounds. USAO/SEC/FTC? You're going to see tons of people with big firm backgrounds - and usually not any big firms, mostly V50ish type places.